[dickiegera]

---

2♦ alerted as MNF
Is 4NT Quantitative or Ace asking 1430 RKC
If Quantitative, then is 4♣ Ace asking 1430 RKC.

Thank you

[sfi]

 dickiegera, on 2012-December-18, 16:33, said:

Is 4NT Quantitative or Ace asking 1430 RKC
If Quantitative, then is 4♣ Ace asking 1430 RKC.

As in so many of these situations, the answer is "depends on your partnership agreements." Given the hands and auction we have here though, I'm going to assume that:

- Opener bids features up the line in response to NMF.
- 2♦ is invitational or better.
- 4NT over 1NT would have been quantitative.

In that case, there is no reason for 4NT to be quantitative over a 2♥ bid. Responder has not ruled out spades as a potential contract. Additionally, a 4-4 heart fit might have been uncovered, making key card a viable option.

More generally, responder can always bid something forcing with a quantitative invitation to slam, so 4NT is much more useful as key card after NMF.

Whether 4♣ is best used as RKC is up to the partnership. I would tend to expect it to be a splinter, but that may vary in different circles.

As for the actual bidding, West has no reason at all to be bidding 4NT whatever it means. Showing diamonds in a forcing way looks much better. Note that 6♦ or 6♠ are both very good, while 6NT is 50% on a heart lead. And West has no idea what to do after any response over 4NT - even 5♠ showing a spade fit and accepting an invitation doesn't help sort out whether 6 or 7 is right.

[jillybean]

4N is peculiar no matter how it is intended.
West should be bidding out his shape - 3♣ if 2♦ was only invitational.

[steve2005]

 jillybean, on 2012-December-18, 17:54, said:

4N is peculiar no matter how it is intended.
West should be bidding out his shape - 3♣ if 2♦ was only invitational.

4N definitely 14/30 with ♥ as trump having just magically found a 4-4 fit. lol
dont know why asking Blackwood, only possible ace is useless A♥ and you'll have no more information towards 6 or 7 ♠

should have bid 3♠ as forcing with 5♠ (unless you play 2♠ as forcing then do that instead) and go on from there

[Bbradley62]

 sfi, on 2012-December-18, 17:14, said:

Given the hands and auction we have here though, I'm going to assume that:

- Opener bids features up the line in response to NMF.

Is that standard in Oz? I would expect opener to be showing shape, with 2♥ simply shows four hearts and denies three spades. Showing 3-card support should have been East's first priority over NMF.

[Bbradley62]

 jillybean, on 2012-December-18, 17:54, said:

West should be bidding out his shape - 3♣ if 2♦ was only invitational.

Since 2♦ was artificial (alerted as NMF), West has not shown his diamonds, so "bidding out his shape" should mean bidding diamonds, not clubs, over 2♥.

[Siegmund]

I expect Blackwood is the majority treatment here.

In my regular partnerships it is, but that is, in part, because we play that opener's 3rd bid shows min/max as well as major-suit length, sort of like Magister/Roudi rather than simple NMF - so the hands that contemplated a quantitative invite would already know now what to do.

[kenberg]

Holding four hearts and three spades, as near as I can tell there are some who bid hearts first in response to nmf, some who bid spades first. I slightly favor the heart approach but I would be uncertain if we had not discussed it. I would expect 4NT over the heart bid to be rkc.

That being said, even looking at the hands I am unsure what West intended 4NT to be. I would bid it as 1♦-1♠-1NT-2♣-2♥-3♦-3♠. We have now found our 5-3 spade fit. W knows E is 3-4 in ♠♥ and thus, from the club opening and the NT rebid, is 2-4 or 3-3 in the minors. Would I then just go for it? I dunno. Maybe. I am not really sure what the right road to 6 is w/o engaging in a bit of wishing. But anywaty, yes I think the 4NT in the given auction is rkc, but if I were bidding it would start as I describe and then I wouold do something.

[Phil]

In these auctions if 2N is forcing, then that can include the 19 point hands that invite. One of the reasons I hate one way NMF (and many other SAYC auctions for that matter) is that simple auctions require a lot of discussion.

If 2N is NF then I would expect 4N should be quant.

But why worry about these nuances? Just play 2 way NMF and not sweat it

[sfi]

 Bbradley62, on 2012-December-18, 20:37, said:

Is that standard in Oz? I would expect opener to be showing shape, with 2♥ simply shows four hearts and denies three spades. Showing 3-card support should have been East's first priority over NMF.

I'm not sure, but since East has 3 spades and 4 hearts it seems like a valid starting point.

[kenberg]

The following just occurred to me:

With some, I play that 1NT-2♣-2♥-4NT is quantitative with four spades.
Playing this way, 1NT-2♣-2♥-4♣ is rkcg (Gerber key card, hearts are trump).
This may or may not be crazy, it's not exactly an everyday auction and so I have only modest experience with how it works in practice. So far, so good, as they say. I suppose the general concept would work after the NT rebid and the new minor inquiry. That is, after the 2♥, responder bids 4♣ to ask about keys for hearts or bids 4NT quantitative, which opener can convert to 5♠ if he has three spades and a minimum NT opener.
Don't send me a bill for your losses if this approach goes down in flames.

[P_Marlowe]

2H showes min, raising 2H to 3H would be forcing.

Given that you have a way to set trumps in a forcing manner, I would go with quantitative,
but I dont know how usefull this is, since I already know opener to be min.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[kenberg]

Does 2♥ show a minimum? That 2♦ bid could be on a hand with five spades and five diamonds, or for that matter five spades and five clubs, looking for a slam in one of the two suits. Bidding 3♥ is going to crowd things a bit. On the given layout you want to be in 6♠ but it doesn't take much adjustment to the hands to make 6♦ the winning spot. This is especially true if we upgrade opener's had to a 14 count. Now he bids 3♥ instead of 2♥? Responder does what then? Since 2♦ did not show diamonds we have to first introduce our diamond suit at the four level. And we have to hope partner realizes it's a suit rather than a cue in support of a slam try in hearts.

Phil will say we should play 2-way and perhaps that is so, but I still like, for these hands, 1♣-1♠-1NT-2♦-2♥-3♦-3♠. At least we now know what trump is. As responder I will be more than a little worried that the 2♥ might be on something like KQJx which uses up a lot of points to little avail, so I don't really know how to sort out whether we belong in 6♠, but knowing what trump is and having a reasonable understanding of partner's shape gives me a fair chance of getting it right.


Incidentally, if opener fits diamonds but not spades, I think 3♥ over 3♦ shows that fit as well as the heart control. Also, the 3♠ bid over 3♦ shows spades under the assumption that he can have three spades. If opener would already have bid 2♠ when he held four hearts and three spades, then I think the 3♠ over 3♦ shows something like Kx. Responder is suggesting the hand be played in a suit rather than no trump, and if the 2♥ denied three spades then we should not pass up an opportunity to suggest 4♠ may be viable in a strong 5-2 fit.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 kenberg, on 2012-December-18, 21:20, said:

Holding four hearts and three spades, as near as I can tell there are some who bid hearts first in response to nmf, some who bid spades first.

A)
If 2H shows 4 cds ♥ and DENIES 3 cds ♠, then after 2H( as one expert I know ) :
3H = agree ♥, GF
4C! = RKC-Gerber for ♠ ( and nor for ♥ because of the available GF 3H bid )
4NT = Quantitative invite

Additionally, the reasoning for the 4C-jump NOT natural is that the following GF ♣ bid is available:
1C - 1S
1NT - 2D!
2H - 3C! = natural GF, cancels interest in ♠

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Many bids for ( B ) remain the same as ( A ) :
B)
If 2H shows 4 cds ♥ AND could have 3 cds ♠, then after 2H :
2S = non-forcing, 5 cds ♠, denies 4 cds ♥
3C = GF, see (A) above
3D = GF, 5s/5d
......... - 3S = 3 cds ♠
3H = GF, agree ♥
3S-jump = GF, 6s, denies 4h
3NT = GF, 5s, denies 4h
......... - 4S = Opener has both 3s and 4h
4NT = Quant invite, 5s, denies 4h
4C! = RKC-Gerber for ♠ as in (A) above

[kenberg]

I can see how a raise of 2♥ to 3♥ can be played as forcing. I had to think about it bit, but it seems to work. After 1♣-1♠1NT, responder with five spades and invitational values launches new minor. Opener replies 2♥. If responder does not have four hearts, no one cares if 3♥ is fprcing because it won't be bid. But if responder has four hearts than we are in the following situation: Responder had invitational values to start with, and now there is a known 4-4- fit. Further, either, in case A, there is a doubleton spade opposite the five card suit or, sometimes in case B, three spades opposite the five card suit. Either way this is good. In the first ase we ruff spades to gain tricks and establish the suit, in the second case we have a double fit and we have found the 4-4. Of course this doesn't guarantee that 4♥ will make but it makes it a good bet, our chances have improved considerably since we started the nmf bid, so we would hardly ever want to just invite and be turned down.

Without getting into the other aspects of this system, I think i will bring it up with partner that really 3♥ as invitational is not all that useful, and it could be quite useful as natural and forcing when something more than game is contemplated.

Thanks

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Here is a special NMF sequence ( after a 1S response to a 1-minor open ) that the Manager at OKBridge came up with quite awhile ago :

1m - 1S
1NT - 2om! ( NMF )
3H jump = max open ( ~14 hcp ), 4h AND 3s

Unfortunately, the Opener here was a minimum ( ~ 12 hcp ) 3 4 3 3 and only warrants a 2H reply.

[ggwhiz]

I have no particular take on this auction except that 3♦ (or many other bids) should create a game force and get you to key card on something useful. In that light I see 4nt quantitative with only 4 spades to be a legit agreement. Any reason to bid 4nt directly on this hand escapes me.

Commercial interuption: I strongly prefer Kantar 2♣ to NMF. Since by definition it is a minimum of a game invite or better there is a lot of room for opener to superaccept (or not) and even a baron type response structure to show exact shapes, (well, close) when they do.

[steve2005]

 kenberg, on 2012-December-19, 08:43, said:

Does 2♥ show a minimum? That 2♦ bid could be on a hand with five spades and five diamonds, or for that matter five spades and five clubs, looking for a slam in one of the two suits. Bidding 3♥ is going to crowd things a bit. On the given layout you want to be in 6♠ but it doesn't take much adjustment to the hands to make 6♦ the winning spot. This is especially true if we upgrade opener's had to a 14 count. Now he bids 3♥ instead of 2♥? Responder does what then? Since 2♦ did not show diamonds we have to first introduce our diamond suit at the four level. And we have to hope partner realizes it's a suit rather than a cue in support of a slam try in hearts.

I agree, sure if you have agreed on an extended agreement of what 3 levels bids or are playing 2-way nmf.
I dont play with people wanting to have an extensive system over nmf.
So i need 3H as invitational

[lycier]

Needless to say,4nt is Quantitative.

[Fluffy]

4NT with 5530 is handy, regardless of what partner thinks it is we have the farthest from that.