[P_Marlowe]

kenberg, on 2012-December-19, 08:43, said:

Does 2♥ show a minimum?
<snip>

What does 3H instead of 2H show? Does the answer to the NMF inquiry exist?

The way I learned NMF, 3H showes max. and 4 hearts.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[kenberg]

P_Marlowe, on 2012-December-20, 01:50, said:

What does 3H instead of 2H show? Does the answer to the NMF inquiry exist?

The way I learned NMF, 3H showes max. and 4 hearts.

With kind regards
Marlowe

Two4 suggests that3♥ shows four hearts, three spades, and a max. Absent some sort of agreement like that, I think the call should not exist. The problem is that the space consuming bid will be fine if over 3♥ responder can comfortably rebid 3NT, or of course if he has hearts, but on some hands he is going to be stuck.

Like a lot of people, I have realized NMF has its issues, but they rarely arise and so I have not thought much about them. But I think that Two4's idea that 2♥ is simply four hearts, presumably 12-14 highs, and still the raise to 3♥ is forcing, is worth consideration. Imagine you are responder, you hold five spades, four hearts and some number of highs. The auction begins 1♣-1♠1NT and you have to choose a call. Sometimes it will be the pass/correct call of 2♥. If you contemplate launching NMF with 2♦, you have to take into account that partner will play you for invitational values and so, if he has neither four hearts nor three spades, he will bid 3NT rather than a passable 2NT. So, if you bid 2♦ you must have a decent hand. Now you bid 2♦ and partner responds 2♥. Surely your hand has just gotten a lot better. You have a 4-4 fit and the combined hands have some shape. Maybe partner will be ruffing minors in your hand, more likely he will be establishing spades either because they are 5-3 or because they are 5-2 and he can ruff a ound or two in his hand. Bottm line, you would like to know more about his hand, where his honors are and so on, but even if 3♥ is available as an invitation, it doesn't completely speak to this problem Partly it does, because a guy with 14 points is more apt to have honors where you want them simply because he has more honors. But all in all, given that my NMF call had to contemplate that partner would accept the invitation and bid 3NT on a good hand, the fact that he actually bid hearts seems to now make my previously invitational hand worthy of playing at the four level. If so, then 3♥ is forcing.



Alternatively, if 3♥ remains as an invitation, I still think that 2♥ by opener should simply be four hearts without specifying point count. The argument is this: If responder lacks four hearts, he will bid again and now opener with his maximum can bid 3NT. If responder has four hearts, then the hand has improved and it would be reasonable to agree that with four hearts, five spades, and enough value to have launched NMF in the first place, responder will always raise 2♥ to at least 3. My guess is that most of the time there will be ten tricks in hearts, rarely only eight.


I realize tis is a wordy answer, but as I say I have payed NMF for many years w/o much bothering to think through some of these issues. Two4's response got me to thinking a bit about this and maybhe it has interest to others as well..


While I am here, let me give you an auction form the other day.


It began 1♦-1♠-1NT]2♣-2♦-3♣

Opener had six diamonds and redid his diamonds over 3♣. He also had Jxx in clubs, and might have raise clubs. The winning call was 3♠ on his Kx.
They played in 4♦, making twelve tricks instead of ten when the defense started with a heart instead of a stiff club through KTxxx on the board. Ten tricks is also the limit in clubs because of the badly place AQ9x. But 4♠ rolls. Responder has to have something for his bidding and what he has is AQJxx of spades, and the ace of diamonds. There are five spades and six diamonds ready to go.
Yes opener was 2=2=6=3, responder was 5=0=3=5 and the opponents never bid hearts. It happens. Regardless, looking at the two hands, it's clear that you want to be in spades and after the 2♦ denial of a three spade holding, showing something like the Kx later seemed right to me. But of course I was a kib, seeing all four hands.