[Shugart23]

I have two questions which I am wondering if there is a consensus when your shape is 5332 where your 5-card suit is a Major and you are playing precision
1) If your only choice is to either opening 1 of a Major or bid 1NT, do you generally favor one over the other?
2_) If Partner has opened 1NT and your only choices are to Pass or transfer, do you generally favor one over the other?

For question 1 (when I used to play precision) I would always open the Major and for question 2, I had made to a decision to always transfer. Now that I am picking up the game again, I'd like to revisit what I used to do and get some feedback. Thank you

[mw64ahw]

Still learning Precision

• I open 5332 shapes with 1M; if partner can't raise then you can Pass 1NT if that's the next bid
• Depends on the combined hcp count

[DavidKok]

I'll give a slightly longer answer.

In any system I consider the notrump ladder to be one of the key features of the system. A slight majority of all opening hands are balanced, and being able to handle those comfortably is vital to score well in bridge. It is nearly impossible to gain enough on the semibalanced and unbalanced hands to cover for regular losses on balanced hands.
To me the answers to your questions depend on a number of factors. In particular:

• What is your NT ladder?
  
• How often do you open or rebid 1NT with a semibalanced or unbalanced hand?
  
• If the auction goes 1M-1NT, what is your systemic way to bid with 5M332?

There are a lot of different styles here. Being slightly aggressive for a second, I think a lot of old systems made a real mess of this. Including lots of semibalanced hands in the 1NT opening or rebid, forcing opener to rebid 3-card suits with balanced hands, having 4-point 1NT bids or failing to open 11s or even 12s all add up. I prefer splitting balanced from unbalanced opening hands as early as reasonably possible, allowing for better hand evaluation by responder on most auctions. In a 5cM system like Precision this pairs well with a strong notrump and a semiforcing NT response, as now I can bid 1M-1NT; P with a weak notrump 5M332, open 1NT with a strong notrump 5M332, and my 1M-1NT; 2m shows four (though you may wish to include other gadgets here as well). So my answer to your question 1 is to systemically mandate opening balanced hands in your 1NT range with 1NT, regardless of whether they have a 5cM or not.
In my experience quite a few systems take a different approach to this notrump ladder and its impact on the system. If this applies to your preferred version of Precision my recommendation will be of limited use, though I do think it is likely you will bleed a significant amount of IMPs or MPs on the decision.

As for question 2: facing a balanced hand it is on balance better to transfer. If your partner will regularly include semibalanced or unbalanced hands in 1NT it becomes a guessing game, and you would have to include your partnership tendencies to determine if it's still a winner on balance. Personally I always transfer, also because I place a high value on distinguishing balanced from not balanced.

[Shugart23]

DavidKok, on 2024-February-18, 07:45, said:

I'll give a slightly longer answer.

In any system I consider the notrump ladder to be one of the key features of the system. A slight majority of all opening hands are balanced, and being able to handle those comfortably is vital to score well in bridge. It is nearly impossible to gain enough on the semibalanced and unbalanced hands to cover for regular losses on balanced hands.
To me the answers to your questions depend on a number of factors. In particular:

• What is your NT ladder?
  
• How often do you open or rebid 1NT with a semibalanced or unbalanced hand?
  
• If the auction goes 1M-1NT, what is your systemic way to bid with 5M332?

There are a lot of different styles here. Being slightly aggressive for a second, I think a lot of old systems made a real mess of this. Including lots of semibalanced hands in the 1NT opening or rebid, forcing opener to rebid 3-card suits with balanced hands, having 4-point 1NT bids or failing to open 11s or even 12s all add up. I prefer splitting balanced from unbalanced opening hands as early as reasonably possible, allowing for better hand evaluation by responder on most auctions. In a 5cM system like Precision this pairs well with a strong notrump and a semiforcing NT response, as now I can bid 1M-1NT; P with a weak notrump 5M332, open 1NT with a strong notrump 5M332, and my 1M-1NT; 2m shows four (though you may wish to include other gadgets here as well). So my answer to your question 1 is to systemically mandate opening balanced hands in your 1NT range with 1NT, regardless of whether they have a 5cM or not.
In my experience quite a few systems take a different approach to this notrump ladder and its impact on the system. If this applies to your preferred version of Precision my recommendation will be of limited use, though I do think it is likely you will bleed a significant amount of IMPs or MPs on the decision.

As for question 2: facing a balanced hand it is on balance better to transfer. If your partner will regularly include semibalanced or unbalanced hands in 1NT it becomes a guessing game, and you would have to include your partnership tendencies to determine if it's still a winner on balance. Personally I always transfer, also because I place a high value on distinguishing balanced from not balanced.

I am not familiar with the term 'No Trump ladder'. Can you explain?

In answer to a couple of your questions, we are extremely disciplined in our 1NT opening - Must be 4333 or 4432 or 5332 with a Minor....so I am wondering if I ought to throw in 5332 with Hearts or even both Majors. Including the Heart 5332 hand in 1NT cuts off the 1 Spade overcall so I see that advantage.

If I am 5332 and I bid 1M and it goes 1NT by partner, I bid 2C and partner knows I am either 5332 (alert -could be short) or I have 4 Clubs to go along with my 5 Hearts. Our forcing 1NT bid is unlimited in strength. (We start with Oliver Clarkes system and have our own tweaks to it)

So my read on your note is : I should include the 5332 hands in my 1NT opening and that my decsion to transfer to a Major )vs Pass_ is preferable ?

[DavidKok]

The notrump ladder refers to your opening and rebid scheme for balanced hands (assuming you don't find a major suit fit immediately). In standard systems it looks something as follows:

• 12-14: open at the 1-level, rebid 1NT.
  
• 15-17: open 1NT.
  
• 18-19: open at the 1-level, jump rebid 2NT.
  
• 20-21: open 2NT.
  
• 22-23: open 2♣, rebid 2NT.
  
• 24+: open 2♣, rebid 2♥ (Birthright), rebid 2NT.

Other variations exist but this is a fairly common approach. The key point is that you wish to have a clear way to show balanced hands early, i.e. with your opening or rebid. Consequently I think it is wise not to include (m)any semibalanced or unbalanced hands in these sequences, that way you get to benefit from both showing your shape and your point range accurately and cheaply. In a Precision system a likely ladder is:

• 11-13: open at the 1-level, rebid 1NT.
  
• 14-16: open 1NT.
  
• 17-19: open 1♣, rebid 1NT.
  
• 20-21: open 2NT.
  
• 22-23: open 1♣, jump rebid 2NT.
  
• 24+: open 1♣, rebid 2♥ (Birthright), rebid 2NT,

though, again, other schemes exist. At any rate knowing how to open and respond/rebid with balanced hands is a really important part of your bidding system.

The forcing 1NT with the 2m rebid can be three (or two, depending on system) is one such alternative, where I expect you will have more guesswork. It is still somewhat popular but is (thankfully) not popular where I play. As a specific example, if you systemically open 1M with 5M332 regardless of strength you might be stuck on 1♥-1♠ with 14-15 (the 1NT rebid would show 11-13) and are also forced into rebidding a 3-card 2m on 1M-1NT (without clarifying your range or your shape more compared to last round, putting pressure on responder). You can move the problem around somewhat by picking a different notrump ladder, but this won't solve the main problem. True solutions exist, but I think the best one of all is to open 1NT with 5M332 in range.

[Shugart23]

DavidKok, on 2024-February-18, 08:34, said:

The notrump ladder refers to your opening and rebid scheme for balanced hands (assuming you don't find a major suit fit immediately). In standard systems it looks something as follows:

• 12-14: open at the 1-level, rebid 1NT.
  
• 15-17: open 1NT.
  
• 18-19: open at the 1-level, jump rebid 2NT.
  
• 20-21: open 2NT.
  
• 22-23: open 2♣, rebid 2NT.
  
• 24+: open 2♣, rebid 2♥ (Birthright), rebid 2NT.

Other variations exist but this is a fairly common approach. The key point is that you wish to have a clear way to show balanced hands early, i.e. with your opening or rebid. Consequently I think it is wise not to include (m)any semibalanced or unbalanced hands in these sequences, that way you get to benefit from both showing your shape and your point range accurately and cheaply. In a Precision system a likely ladder is:

• 11-13: open at the 1-level, rebid 1NT.
  
• 14-16: open 1NT.
  
• 17-19: open 1♣, rebid 1NT.
  
• 20-21: open 2NT.
  
• 22-23: open 1♣, jump rebid 2NT.
  
• 24+: open 1♣, rebid 2♥ (Birthright), rebid 2NT,

though, again, other schemes exist. At any rate knowing how to open and respond/rebid with balanced hands is a really important part of your bidding system.

The forcing 1NT with the 2m rebid can be three (or two, depending on system) is one such alternative, where I expect you will have more guesswork. It is still somewhat popular but is (thankfully) not popular where I play.

Now that I know what the term ' ladder' is, yes we do this (from Oliver Clarke's system):

Cambridge Heart Complex
After the sequence 1♣-1♦ a rebid of 1♥ by Opener is either natural, promising a 5-card or longer Heart suit or showing a strong balanced hand. In either case it asks Responder to rebid 1♠ unless they have one of the special hand-types listed below. Over Responder's 1♠ bid Opener now clarifies their hand-type and range, rebids in NTs promising strong balanced hands and any other bid being 100% natural and confirming the Heart suit.


The full scheme for showing balanced hands is as follows:

1NT shows 10-12 balanced (Non-vulnerable)
1♦-1x-1NT shows 11-12 balanced (Vulnerable) or 13-15 balanced (Non-Vulnerable)
1NT shows 13-15 balanced (Vulnerable)
1♣-1♦-1NT shows 16-18 balanced
1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠-1NT shows 19-21 balanced
1♣-1♦-2NT shows 22-23 balanced
1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠-2NT shows 24-25 balanced
1♣-1♦-3NT shows 26-27 balanced
1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠-3NT shows 28-29 balanced
Note: The Complex System has additional means to show balanced hands in the 30-33 hcp range that do not involve the Cambridge Heart Complex.
Exceptions

[DavidKok]

That's a good start, but you are missing the balanced hands with a 5cM. The ladder you gave is solid though slightly different from what I prefer. If you are happy with a forcing 1NT over a 1M opening and with rebidding a three card minor then you can pick your opening. As mentioned I personally think the distinction between balanced and not balanced is too valuable, and I prefer different responses to 1M to assist with showing this.
People will bid a lot over the 1♣ opening, so it is helpful to have good discussions on how to show these ranges in competition. This is why I strongly prefer that 16HCP balanced hands do not open 1♣ - it gives responder a lot more freedom if (when) the opponents interfere. I even kept the 20-21 balanced hands out so that you have some clear ideas on how to show balanced hands in competition: 17-19 passes, 22+ can afford to bid 2NT or higher. A lot of authors do not spend a proportionate amount of attention on these contested auctions. In generan I would recommend dividing your time on studying a Precision system approximately 30/50/10/10:

• 30% on when you open 1♦ through 2♦ and have the auction to yourself.
  
• 50% on when you open 1♦ through 2♦ and the opponents interfere.
  
• 10% on when you open 1♣ and have the auction to yourself.
  
• 10% on when you open 1♣ and the opponents interfere.

This is unrealistic as most authors spend too much time on their uncontested auctions, but not too far from what you should expect to encounter at the table. In particular, don't put too much effort into the uncontested system over 1♣ - it is infrequent and doesn't win much when it comes up.

[Shugart23]

DavidKok, on 2024-February-18, 08:50, said:

That's a good start, but you are missing the balanced hands with a 5cM. The ladder you gave is solid though slightly different from what I prefer. If you are happy with a forcing 1NT over a 1M opening and with rebidding a three card minor then you can pick your opening. As mentioned I personally think the distinction between balanced and not balanced is too valuable, and I prefer different responses to 1M to assist with showing this.
People will bid a lot over the 1♣ opening, so it is helpful to have good discussions on how to show these ranges in competition. A lot of authors do not spend a proportionate amount of attention to these different scenarios. I would recommend diving your time on studying a Precision system approximately 30/50/10/10:

• 30% on when you open 1♦ through 2♦ and have the auction to yourself.
  
• 50% on when you open 1♦ through 2♦ and the opponents interfere.
  
• 10% on when you open 1♣ and have the auction to yourself.
  
• 10% on when you open 1♣ and the opponents interfere.

This is unrealistic as most authors spend too much time on their uncontested auctions, but not too far from what you should expect to encounter at the table. In particular, don't put too much effort into the uncontested system over 1♣ - it is infrequent and doesn't win much when it comes up.

I think I'm just going to throw in all the 5332 hands into the 1NT bid. The wife and I played Oliver's system for about 6 years before we switched to MICS and then we stopped playing shortly before the Pandemic hit. I am now teaching my son the game, starting with my old version of precision which leaned heavily on Oliver's. Thanks much !!!

PS I totally agree to know how to deal with interference . Oliver does a great deal with lebensohl in a variety of situations which we found to be an indispensible tool in dealing with opponents

[DavidKok]

I recently read Eric Jannersten's book on Precision, containing 222 pages of system notes. It is very well written but almost completely worthless - the conventions are dated, the system approach flawed and of those 222 pages only 2 discuss interference of any kind. Almost nobody, myself included, spends enough time thinking about contested auctions.

When you say 'all 5332 hands' I assume you mean 'all in range', which is also the approach I favour. It has a number of upsides, e.g. on 1M-2♣; 2NT you now know opener's strength to within a narrow range (in your case, 13-15 NV or 10-12 Vul).

[Shugart23]

DavidKok, on 2024-February-18, 09:16, said:

I recently read Eric Jannersten's book on Precision, containing 222 pages of system notes. It is very well written but almost completely worthless - the conventions are dated, the system approach flawed and of those 222 pages only 2 discuss interference of any kind. Almost nobody, myself included, spends enough time thinking about contested auctions.

When you say 'all 5332 hands' I assume you mean 'all in range', which is also the approach I favour. It has a number of upsides, e.g. on 1M-2♣; 2NT you now know opener's strength to within a narrow range (in your case, 13-15 NV or 10-12 Vul).

Yes...in the range....I did just now go back and look at O.C.s page and to verify that he only includes the 5332 Minor holdings in his NT bid....But I can see your point....SO question for you ...If you have 6 Hearts and 4 Diamonds, you will open 1H and then how do you respond to partners 1NT ? do you show the 6th heart or the Diamond suit ?

[DavidKok]

The traditional wisdom is to show the diamonds with a maximum and rebid the hearts immediately with a minimum, or to possibly let this depend on suit quality (e.g. with good hearts favour rebidding them). Personally I think there is a strong case to be made for always bidding the minor suit, especially in a limited opening system. Partner is very aware of the fact that majors pay better than minors, both at IMPs and at MPs, and will often take false preference or leave enough space to explore further. So recently I have been always bidding the minor suit, and so far it's only gained (though of course in the long run I expect it to sometimes win and sometimes lose).

[Shugart23]

DavidKok, on 2024-February-18, 09:36, said:

The traditional wisdom is to show the diamonds with a maximum and rebid the hearts immediately with a minimum, or to possibly let this depend on suit quality (e.g. with good hearts favour rebidding them). Personally I think there is a strong case to be made for always bidding the minor suit, especially in a limited opening system. Partner is very aware of the fact that majors pay better than minors, both at IMPs and at MPs, and will often take false preference or leave enough space to explore further. So recently I have been always bidding the minor suit, and so far it's only gained (though of course in the long run I expect it to sometimes win and sometimes lose).

Oliver bids the minor ahead of the extra heart, as well. I guess the downside of including the 5M332 hand in 1NT opening is how do you find your 5-3 Major fit, especially at the 2 (or 3) level ?

[DavidKok]

Some people adopt a gadget for this (notably puppet stayman in 2♣, 2NT or 3♣ - pick one), though usually those focus on finding the best game rather than improving the partscore. Realistically it is a minor concern - if responder is balanced usually NT is a better contract than the 5-3 major fit facing 5M332 anyway, so for this to win you need responder to have three card support along with a short(er) outside suit. This also implies length in a third suit, and typically you just show that longer suit instead.

[Shugart23]

DavidKok, on 2024-February-18, 09:50, said:

Some people adopt a gadget for this (notably puppet stayman in 2♣, 2NT or 3♣ - pick one), though usually those focus on finding the best game rather than improving the partscore. Realistically it is a minor concern - if responder is balanced usually NT is a better contract than the 5-3 major fit facing 5M332 anyway, so for this to win you need responder to have three card support along with a short(er) outside suit. This also implies length in a third suit, and typically you just show that longer suit instead.

Yes - i was thinking part scores in MP. I guess that's the downside of including 5M332 hands within the NT bid(s)

[PrecisionL]

Long ago a Houston Pro told me that playing Match Point Pairs, if you open 1NT with 5M332, do it only with 3 in the other major so you won't get a bad score playing in the wrong major. I also open 1NT without 3 in the other major if my major is very weak, i.e. xxxxx / Jxxxx.

Additionally, with 7-8 hcp and a weak 5-cd major, I often pass partner's 1NT opening. Yesterday, we scored a top when there were 3 losers in the major, but our NT contract made 2 (opponents didn't find their 3 tricks in our major (showing in dummy).

[nullve]

Even if you open 1N with 14-16 hcp and 5H(332), 1♥-1N; 2m still doesn't promise 4+ m unless you have a special way of dealing with Flannery type hands.

[DavidKok]

nullve, on 2024-February-18, 15:55, said:

Even if you open 1N with 14-16 hcp and 5H(332), 1♥-1N; 2m still doesn't promise 4+ m unless you have a special way of dealing with Flannery type hands.

Pass 1NT with a minimum or rebid 2♠ if you think the hand is a true maximum and it's worth going past 2♥. If you are really uncomfortable with either option, consider opening 1NT. Personally I think there's actually some benefits to playing Gazzilli or similar conventions in a limited opening system which would solve the 2♠ rebid problem, though of course the convention is of limited value compared to standard. By and large the hand is worth a downgrade now that partner doesn't have a fit for either of our majors, so pass is usually the winner.

[helene_t]

I normally open 1M if 5M332. Not when playing Acol but in most other systems, including precision.

I will occasionally open 1nt with five hearts.

[foobar]

Shugart23, on 2024-February-18, 07:28, said:

I have two questions which I am wondering if there is a consensus when your shape is 5332 where your 5-card suit is a Major and you are playing precision
1) If your only choice is to either opening 1 of a Major or bid 1NT, do you generally favor one over the other?
2_) If Partner has opened 1NT and your only choices are to Pass or transfer, do you generally favor one over the other?

For question 1 (when I used to play precision) I would always open the Major and for question 2, I had made to a decision to always transfer. Now that I am picking up the game again, I'd like to revisit what I used to do and get some feedback. Thank you

My style is to routinely open 1N with 5M332 in 1st/2nd if in range for the 14-16 NT, and make a tactical judgement call about 1M/1N in the 3rd and 4th seats. When playing light openings, this makes it much easier to play a non-forcing NT over 1M. While there will undoubtedly be hands that would have fared better with a 1M opening (and vice versa), it hasn't been significant enough to register on the radar.

[Douglas43]

helene_t, on 2024-February-18, 17:41, said:

I normally open 1M if 5M332. Not when playing Acol but in most other systems, including precision.

I will occasionally open 1nt with five hearts.

I took up occasionally opening 1NT with some 5cMs (at Acol) a few years ago and would say that I now do it with about 75% of hands with hearts and maybe 50% of hands with spades. It avoids the problem of what to rebid after a 1S response. On the downside though, 1NT does not help partner find an opening lead.