[gprentice]

What do you need to double or bid a suit over a 4C or 5C preempt and how does partner decide what to do if you double?

[helene_t]

About the same as against a 1, 2 or 3c opening but the higher the level the more lose ot will be in terms of shape. So 5-3 in the majors is quite normal against 5c and possible against 4c if the suit is not great.
Also, since partner will often pass and rarely bid notrumps, quick tricks are more important than points. A 4441 with three aces is a clear double but a quarky 4432 with 15 points can probably better pass.
Partner assumes a 4441 and acts accordingly. As a rule of thump they need a 5card suit at the 4level and a 6csrd suit at the 5level.

[apollo1201]

Test

[pescetom]

Having a rule of thump over a preempt sounds wise to me

A related interesting question is what 4NT or 5NT promises and really needs.

[apollo1201]

Basically both are for take out but the 5 level be will be left more often.

You need over 4C sth like 4451 minus 1 card and at least a prime 14 count. Maybe a small C doubleton will do but with more HCPs. Or a lousy 5 cd M where you do not want to risk 4M and potentially miss a better fit in the other M.

Partner will often try to bid and make 4M when it has reasonable chances of success. A 8-count with 4 or 5 cd for instance. Or more shape but even less. After all, with Qxxxxx and out, you are not sure of defeating 4C. Partner s S honors will get trumped.

Over 5C, undertaking to make 3 tricks rather than 11 will appear usually easier if the hand is flat. So partner will not bid on, unless they have more strength (or will just bid to save is they are weak but very shapely).

Therefore you need the same hand as over 4C but 3 defensive tricks are mandatory. Something like hey, based on my power and support, what do you think we should play?

[gprentice]

Thanks, so if partner doubles 5C and we are vul, they non vul, how many points does the partner need to leave the double in

1. flat hand, nine plus points - leave the double in?
2. with a 5 card suit - say 5431 - how many points needed to bid the suit?

[DavidKok]

With those shapes you'd generally leave the double in. If partner has some values and we have some as well it is unlikely that they can make 11 tricks, so to score well we'd have to be making a 5-level contract (or a slam), and even then defending may prove to have been better. Bidding here is based more on shape than strength. Without a six card suit or a void of your own it's often attractive to pass at the 5-level, though it depends on the exact hand.
There are no good quick rules for this situation. Preempts give you a difficult guess, that's why people keep bidding them.

[bluenikki]

gprentice, on 2024-February-18, 00:37, said:

What do you need to double or bid a suit over a 4C or 5C preempt and how does partner decide what to do if you double?

The responses assume that _dealer_ was the pre-emptor. If partner has passed, intervening with the hands you describe will convert a possible minus into a certain minus.

[gprentice]

bluenikki, on 2024-February-18, 16:51, said:

The responses assume that _dealer_ was the pre-emptor. If partner has passed, intervening with the hands you describe will convert a possible minus into a certain minus.

Yes I know, that was my assumption too. I don't understand why you thought otherwise.