Help
Scoring: IMP
Preempt or not?
#1
- mmm Duvel
-
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 10,728
- Joined: 2003-July-30
- Gender:Male
- Location:Belgium
- Interests:Duvel, Whisky
Posted 2005-June-02, 10:12
You're south, first seat:
"It may be rude to leave to go to the bathroom, but it's downright stupid to sit there and piss yourself" - blackshoe
#2
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 6,951
- Joined: 2003-September-07
- Gender:Male
- Interests:Bridge, poker, politics
Posted 2005-June-02, 10:25
1H 
i'd open 1C playing standard
i'd open 1C playing standard
"Paul Krugman is a stupid person's idea of what a smart person sounds like." Newt Gingrich (paraphrased)
#3
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 17,289
- Joined: 2005-January-08
- Gender:Male
- Location:Tulsa, Oklahoma
- Interests:Art, music
Posted 2005-June-02, 10:44
At this vul, I don't mind a flaw or two for a preempt, but IMO this hand has at least 4.
1) Void - too much trick taking potential
2) Too much major suit offense
3) Too much defense
4) Too good/bad of suit, depending on high high you start.
WinstonM
1) Void - too much trick taking potential
2) Too much major suit offense
3) Too much defense
4) Too good/bad of suit, depending on high high you start.
WinstonM
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
#4
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 3,153
- Joined: 2003-February-28
Posted 2005-June-02, 10:46
3C.
Peter
Peter
#5 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2005-June-02, 10:47
1C for me, pretty sick. Pass is certainly ok. I think 3C is horrible but thats me.
#6
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 14,900
- Joined: 2004-May-11
- Gender:Male
- Location:Portugal
- Interests:Everything!
Posted 2005-June-02, 11:22
Yes, it must be you justin I would bid 3♣ without much concern.. lol.
I would bid 3♣ without much concern.. lol.
#7
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 4,190
- Joined: 2003-September-30
- Location:London, England
- Interests:Cricket
Posted 2005-June-02, 11:25
Clear pass for me; second choice would be 1♣. Never in a million years would I open 3♣ on a hand that could be a suitable dummy in two side suits - majors even.
Roland
Roland
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice
#8 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2005-June-02, 11:32
OK I will go on a little rant since I'm in that kind of mood today (I have already posted wayyyyyyyyyy too much...good subject topics).
What is the "best" kind of hand to preempt. A very simplified take on what I personally think is that a good preempting hand is pure. If partner saves, that is a good thing. If they X me, thats ok because they make something and I have purity so I won't go down too much. So for instance, I would like
x
xx
xxx
QJT98xx
as a preempt at equal vul under this definition. The hand is pure. In fact I would like it more than
J
Qx
Qxx
QJT98xx
Now...the rule about side aces I never understood because aces are "pure cards" if I had
x
Ax
xxx
QJT98xx
I would love to preempt that as well. basically the ODR must be high. This is my main thing. As a secondary thing, a preempt with strong playability in another major is a flaw to me. However if it's pure thats ok. For instance:
x
JTxx
KQJxxxx
x
I have no problem opening 4D despite the major suit playability. However a hand like:
x
AJxx
Qxxxxxx
x
I would not preempt. This hand doesn't fit the 3rd major concern for me, suit quality. My definition for suit quality is different though. I think SPOTS are extremely important. AK5432 is a "worse" suit to me than QJT987. Just ask yourself if it goes p p X p p p which suit are you more scared with. Things like side voids don't really matter to me, as they add to the offense of the hand. As a 4th concern I don't like "balanced" preempts as much as "unbalanced" e.g. 7222 is worse than 7321. Fine.
Now, the way I see preempts this suit is fine. However, it is not an "offensive hand" the ODR is too low and there are alot of soft values. The hand is not pure. There is strong playability for hearts. The hand is sort of too strong as a side concern.
To me this hand is not preemptive in nature, and thus should not be preempted. Partner will make wrong decisions in competitive auctions, and whether to bid game or not. We may also miss hearts, or get stolen from because partner won't expect this much defense and won't X them. etc.
/end rant
What is the "best" kind of hand to preempt. A very simplified take on what I personally think is that a good preempting hand is pure. If partner saves, that is a good thing. If they X me, thats ok because they make something and I have purity so I won't go down too much. So for instance, I would like
x
xx
xxx
QJT98xx
as a preempt at equal vul under this definition. The hand is pure. In fact I would like it more than
J
Qx
Qxx
QJT98xx
Now...the rule about side aces I never understood because aces are "pure cards" if I had
x
Ax
xxx
QJT98xx
I would love to preempt that as well. basically the ODR must be high. This is my main thing. As a secondary thing, a preempt with strong playability in another major is a flaw to me. However if it's pure thats ok. For instance:
x
JTxx
KQJxxxx
x
I have no problem opening 4D despite the major suit playability. However a hand like:
x
AJxx
Qxxxxxx
x
I would not preempt. This hand doesn't fit the 3rd major concern for me, suit quality. My definition for suit quality is different though. I think SPOTS are extremely important. AK5432 is a "worse" suit to me than QJT987. Just ask yourself if it goes p p X p p p which suit are you more scared with. Things like side voids don't really matter to me, as they add to the offense of the hand. As a 4th concern I don't like "balanced" preempts as much as "unbalanced" e.g. 7222 is worse than 7321. Fine.
Now, the way I see preempts this suit is fine. However, it is not an "offensive hand" the ODR is too low and there are alot of soft values. The hand is not pure. There is strong playability for hearts. The hand is sort of too strong as a side concern.
To me this hand is not preemptive in nature, and thus should not be preempted. Partner will make wrong decisions in competitive auctions, and whether to bid game or not. We may also miss hearts, or get stolen from because partner won't expect this much defense and won't X them. etc.
/end rant
#9
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 14,900
- Joined: 2004-May-11
- Gender:Male
- Location:Portugal
- Interests:Everything!
Posted 2005-June-02, 11:44
Well, the original hand is not that bad ODR-wise.
Around 7 tricks on attack and 2 tricks on defense. A 5-trick difference, kinda like the same as QJT 7th and out. That makes it ok for preemption. At least in my book.. lol.
Around 7 tricks on attack and 2 tricks on defense. A 5-trick difference, kinda like the same as QJT 7th and out. That makes it ok for preemption. At least in my book.. lol.
#10
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 17,289
- Joined: 2005-January-08
- Gender:Male
- Location:Tulsa, Oklahoma
- Interests:Art, music
Posted 2005-June-02, 11:45
Is Ranting allowed? 
LoL.
I agree in principle with most everything you say, Justin, but even more so at the 2-level. With weak 2D/H/S, especially in 1st or 3rd seat, I don't really care anything about support for majors - if we have a major game or near game we should have the machinery to locate that fit at the lower levels; however, when the air gets thin at the 3 and 4 levels, more precise definement is required IMO, not to mention an oxygen mask.
WinstonM
LoL.I agree in principle with most everything you say, Justin, but even more so at the 2-level. With weak 2D/H/S, especially in 1st or 3rd seat, I don't really care anything about support for majors - if we have a major game or near game we should have the machinery to locate that fit at the lower levels; however, when the air gets thin at the 3 and 4 levels, more precise definement is required IMO, not to mention an oxygen mask.
WinstonM
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
#11
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 18,002
- Joined: 2003-October-07
- Gender:Male
Posted 2005-June-02, 11:49
Free, on Jun 2 2005, 11:12 AM, said:
You're south, first seat:
Scoring: IMP
Pass
#12
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 2,143
- Joined: 2003-May-02
- Location:Buenos Aires, Argentina
Posted 2005-June-02, 11:55
50-50 between pass and 1♣. This hand violates all the rules I have to open a preempt:
- Don't have a side 4 card major
- Don't have a void
- Don't have good values in the short suits
- Don't be close to opening at the 1 level
- Don't have a good hand with a good suit
I know some of you will vote for 3♣ but to me opening this 3♣ is repulsive.
- Don't have a side 4 card major
- Don't have a void
- Don't have good values in the short suits
- Don't be close to opening at the 1 level
- Don't have a good hand with a good suit
I know some of you will vote for 3♣ but to me opening this 3♣ is repulsive.
The legend of the black octogon.
#13
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 14,900
- Joined: 2004-May-11
- Gender:Male
- Location:Portugal
- Interests:Everything!
Posted 2005-June-02, 12:05
Thanx for the tip. I'll make sure I open 3C when I play you, luis 
#14
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 2,016
- Joined: 2004-October-17
Posted 2005-June-02, 12:08
3C also
Senshu
#15
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 3,290
- Joined: 2004-May-03
- Gender:Male
- Location:London, England
Posted 2005-June-02, 12:13
You are 1st seat, NV against vul. This means that you have more to gain by creating a guess for both sides than if the vul was different or you were in 2nd seat, and less to lose if things go wrong. Your shape is very offensive, 7-4s belong in the 7 card suit most of the time, and the T9 of clubs offer some extra security. 4♣ seems absolutely clear to me. If we were vul or I was in 2nd seat then the KJ of spades would persuade me to pass. What do I vote for in the poll, Free?
This post has been edited by MickyB: 2005-June-02, 12:16
#16
- Admirer of Walter the Walrus
-
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 2,570
- Joined: 2003-November-14
- Gender:Male
- Location:Ulaanbaatar, Mongolia
- Interests:Bridge, surfing, water skiing, cricket, golf. Generally being outside really.
Posted 2005-June-02, 12:42
4C is revolting, for the following reasons
1) Double here by opps is left in much more than after 3C, and you have a lot of losers.You'll frequently go for -300 against nothing
2) Most of your cards are defensive in nature. KJ of spades is frequently worthless on offense, but frequently valuable on defense
3) your most likely games are 3NT and 4 of a major. Opening 4C kills any chance of getting to them
1) Double here by opps is left in much more than after 3C, and you have a lot of losers.You'll frequently go for -300 against nothing
2) Most of your cards are defensive in nature. KJ of spades is frequently worthless on offense, but frequently valuable on defense
3) your most likely games are 3NT and 4 of a major. Opening 4C kills any chance of getting to them
#17 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2005-June-02, 12:49
guess this is a good problem, it is evoking strong feelings both ways. There are those who love to preempt this hand and those who hate to. That's why bridge is so great
#18
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 3,290
- Joined: 2004-May-03
- Gender:Male
- Location:London, England
Posted 2005-June-02, 12:59
Sorry, I'm going to rant more because while I like pass and sympathise with 1♣, I really can't understand 3♣!
1) You give the opps a lot more space at a great time for pressure bidding, without giving yourself a reasonable chance of getting into ♥ when it is right
2) You'll play 3♣ or 3N when you should be in 5♣. Wouldn't most of you open 3♣ on KQJTxx and out at this position, and consider it a sound preempt? This is a couple of tricks stronger than that.
3) I put it into a hand evaluator, and it came out as being worth 0.01 tricks more on defence and 0.08 more on offence than xx Kx x AJT9xxxx. The honour structure isn't great, but the shape makes up for it IMO.
1) You give the opps a lot more space at a great time for pressure bidding, without giving yourself a reasonable chance of getting into ♥ when it is right
2) You'll play 3♣ or 3N when you should be in 5♣. Wouldn't most of you open 3♣ on KQJTxx and out at this position, and consider it a sound preempt? This is a couple of tricks stronger than that.
3) I put it into a hand evaluator, and it came out as being worth 0.01 tricks more on defence and 0.08 more on offence than xx Kx x AJT9xxxx. The honour structure isn't great, but the shape makes up for it IMO.
This post has been edited by MickyB: 2005-June-02, 13:03
#19
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 6,951
- Joined: 2003-September-07
- Gender:Male
- Interests:Bridge, poker, politics
Posted 2005-June-02, 15:22
MickyB, on Jun 2 2005, 12:59 PM, said:
1) You give the opps a lot more space at a great time for pressure bidding, without giving yourself a reasonable chance of getting into ♥ when it is right
unless you open it 1♥
"Paul Krugman is a stupid person's idea of what a smart person sounds like." Newt Gingrich (paraphrased)
#20
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 3,290
- Joined: 2004-May-03
- Gender:Male
- Location:London, England
Posted 2005-June-02, 15:51
luke warm, on Jun 2 2005, 10:22 PM, said:
MickyB, on Jun 2 2005, 12:59 PM, said:
1) You give the opps a lot more space at a great time for pressure bidding, without giving yourself a reasonable chance of getting into ♥ when it is right
unless you open it 1♥
Lol Jimmy, possibly a fair chance of getting to hearts when it is wrong as well then
Swans belong in their long suit...