[sakuragi]

bd 26

East confession:
My 1st instinct is 6s. I yet remember bd 13. Though I heard of something called discrete event probability, I sort of place my bet bidding the same 4s and may be this time 4s wins?
Same question does jumping 4s shows a better hand than raising 3s?
If u bid 3d, whatever u hear from pd (this time u hear 3h) do u really get better info to make the call?

your verdict?

[manudude03]

I don't like the fact that it's a 6 HCP hand with a singleton king, but my gut says that a 4C splinter is best. 3D runs the risk of partner bidding 3NT and now all you can do is just bid some number of spades (probably 5 over which West should bid 6). Over a 4C bid however, I don't think you are ever stopping short of 6.

[sakuragi]

if 2c is gf, 4s shows a lesser hand than 3s?
if 2c is not gf, 4s shows a better hand than 3s?

[manudude03]

No, 3S is still stronger even if 2C wasn't strictly GF. With a hand that maybe doesn't want to be in game, they could bid 2NT or 3C as a double negative over which 3S would be NF.

[sakuragi]

i concur 2nt/3c as 2nd -ve. it doesnt quite relate to whether 3s or 4s should be stronger though. both stronger than 2nt/3c.

probably it doesnt matter which one is theoretically stronger, it matters what others preceive.

or are u saying that without 2nd -ve in sequence, the actual sequence in the hand is now gf thus 4s shows lesser hand? i.e. 3s is gf

[gwnn]

The easiest way to play 2C is to have:

2♣-2♦
2NT-pass

as the only situation in which you're not forced to game.

Fred also talked about:
2♣-2♥ "double negative"
where 2♥ specifically means "I will pass 2NT if you bid it."

In that case, the only situation in which you're not forced to game is
2♣-2♥;
2NT-pass

I like both of these solutions (I like the second one better).

Either way, it's not a good idea to be able to stop in 3M after you have found a fit. It doesn't make too much sense. Opener essentially says "I am interested in game if you have anything for me" and responder, by virtue of his/her fit, has that anything.

And even if you say that perhaps
Jxx
xxxx
xxx
xxx

is inadequate for game opposite a normal minimum of a 2♣ opener, surely you must see that this particular hand (you can't make it much stronger to have it any reasonable sense to try to sign off in 3♠) is very rare, even after a 2♣ opener. Much better is to just punt 4♠ with crappy hands and some support and use this 3♠/4♠ distinction to explore slam (making 3♠ stronger than 4♠).

This idea, that simply by virtue of finding a fit we establish a GF, pops up here and there. There is also the auction

1S-2m
2H-3H

where, even if 2m was played as 10+, and opener doesn't promise exrtas, most people would still play this 3H raise as forcing. The space between 3 and 4H is just too valuable to use it for the unlikely event that opener has a bad 11 and responder a bad 10 and game has no chance at all (remember also that opener has shape and responder will also often be 5-4 or something).

[sakuragi]

right. 3s should show a better hand than 4s. file closed. tks

[daffydoc]

by definition ( at least old school) 4S denies any 1st or 2nd round controls - with 5 trumps this hand is way too good - would opt for simple 3S bid - or 4C but reluctant since king is a huge card - provides parking spot for heart loser if pard has both round aces. dyadic

[dave_beer]

The classical meaning of a jump to 4♠ is that it shows very good trumps, at least Hxxx or maybe xxxxx, and denies 1st or 2nd round control of any other suit. This enables opener to pass if there are no slam chances or to bid or try for slam knowing that trumps are solid. New suits can ask for 3rd round control.

Hands with a fit and values unsuitable for 4♠ usually bid 3♠ but can also splinter or show a side suit that is a potential source of tricks and make a strong supporting bid later.

Hands with a fit and no real values that didn't have an immediate 2nd negative available make one now and can either pass 3♠ (or take a non-forcing preference to it) or bid 4♠ if opener hasn't already done so.

There are some players, mostly from the fast arrival school, who play that 4♠ shows the really bad hand.

In either case the East hand is not a 4♠ bid.

P.S. The hand was played on January 16, not 6.