[Stephen Tu]

Imps

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What's your plan? Plausible systemic calls are 3nt/4d/3s, 3s will elicit 4d if partner is 5-5.

[PhantomSac]

If 4C is not a cue then I'd bid 4D.

[mcphee]

Annoying as I do not feel comfortable raising D as much as I would like to. Once I have removed that bid the only 2 left are 3N and 3S. So I will choose the 3S and hope partner repeats D. As this 3D bid could be a 3 card suit I think you need to be careful with your advance.

[Mbodell]

Shouldn't 3♥ be a reasonable call? I'd think it could be a cue for diamonds or a punt towards 3nt, if you remove a 3nt over that to 4♣ will you not have cued both controls and shown support for diamonds? I know it may matter how often diamonds are faked here, and how much the 4+♦ is really 4 plus, but this seems a pretty good hand opposite a GF JS. Something like Axxxx Ax AKxx Kx woud be a minimum hand for the auction that would be favored to make 6♦.

[fromageGB]

I note the comment "will elicit 4♦ if partner is 5-5". That being the case, I assume 3♦ can be shorter [edit - of course it is 4 :yellow boxes!], so I am not enamoured by my diamonds. It sounds as if partner could be semi-balanced. That being the case, with my lack of decent strength I'll go 3NT. I expect partner will continue if shapely.

I think this lack of clarity at the 3-level is a system weakness, or the system needs better explanation.

This post has been edited by fromageGB: 2015-November-16, 05:25

[gnasher]

If partner has faked a jump-shift he'll convert 4♦ to 4♠. If his fakery was provoked by heart weakness, 3NT might not be great.

I think 3♥ shows five or six hearts.

[Stephen Tu]

I also think 3♥ shows heart suit looking for 4♥.

In any case, if you bid 4♦, partner bids 4♥.
1. Should 4♥ guarantee the ace here, or can it be shortness?
2. Now what?

How do you get to slam opposite Axxxx Ax AKxx KQ or Axxxx AQx AKQx x but stay out opposite AKQxx AQx AJxx x or AKJxx AQx AQxx x?

[steve2005]

fromageGB, on 2015-November-16, 05:22, said:

I note the comment "will elicit 4♦ if partner is 5-5". That being the case, I assume 3♦ can be shorter [edit - of course it is 4 :yellow boxes!], so I am not enamoured by my diamonds. It sounds as if partner could be semi-balanced. That being the case, with my lack of decent strength I'll go 3NT. I expect partner will continue if shapely.

I think this lack of clarity at the 3-level is a system weakness, or the system needs better explanation.

yes, is weakness in standard American type systems. Unless playing something like Gazzilli a jump shift is ill-defined.

[ggwhiz]

3nt is wrong on so many levels with so many features for a diamond contract and risks annoying partner to no end. Even at matchpoints if I didn't want diamonds raised on this I wouldn't jump in them. Probably followed by a club cue.

[rmnka447]

I'm bidding 4 ♦ to start. 3 ♠ would be a preference after which it might be impossible to get partner not to play a ♠ contract.

If partner bids 4 ♥, which should be a control and a slam try, I'm bidding 5 ♣ to show the ♣ control. If partner has ♥ shortness, then logically there must ♣ in partner's hand and possession of the ♣ A will be an important thing for partner to know. Even if partner has bid with the ♥ A, you might infer that partner may need a ♣ control to bid slam.

The other thing a 5 ♣ bid says is that you have a good hand for partner for a ♦ slam. If partner can't bid it over 5 ♣, so be it -- you've tried.

[Stephen Tu]

Quote

The other thing a 5 ♣ bid says is that you have a good hand for partner for a ♦ slam. If partner can't bid it over 5 ♣, so be it -- you've tried.

The question in my mind is whether 5♣ should show better than this. For example look at the latter two hands I posted in my previous post, with AQxx trumps, AJxx trumps. Could you really blame partner for jumping to slam with these kind of things playing you for better/longer trumps for raising & bidding 5♣?

[aguahombre]

ggwhiz, on 2015-November-16, 09:35, said:

3nt is wrong on so many levels with so many features for a diamond contract and risks annoying partner to no end. Even at matchpoints if I didn't want diamonds raised on this I wouldn't jump in them. Probably followed by a club cue.

Yes. If she is going to be annoyed, it will be because she created the 3♦ bid with just a long spade suit -- and if she now bids 4♠ over my diamond raise, we will play it there. I would expect her to bid 4♥ over my diamond raise pretty much every time she really had diamonds.

[gnasher]

Stephen Tu, on 2015-November-16, 11:45, said:

The question in my mind is whether 5♣ should show better than this. For example look at the latter two hands I posted in my previous post, with AQxx trumps, AJxx trumps. Could you really blame partner for jumping to slam with these kind of things playing you for better/longer trumps for raising & bidding 5♣?

Well, it's a horrible auction. The 1NT response has an uncomfortably wide range of strengths and shapes; the 3♦ bid consumes loads of space and also has a wide range of shapes; the 4♦ bid (instead of 4♣) takes away partner's temporising/non-serious 4♦ bid. With all of that, we're lucky to have found the right trump suit, never mind the level. (Actually, we may not even have done that. AKQxx x AJxx KQx ?)

Maybe the answer is that after 3♦ 4♥ is a cue-bid with a very suitable hand, like xx Kxx Kxxx Axxx, and 4♦ is less good?

[Phil]

Don't hate me but I'd bid 3N. My hand just isnt that good. All my stuff is in off suits and my hK is suspect. My stiff spade is dubious with shaky trump. I'd expect partner to move with a full jump shift and 55 or extras and 5143 or 5341 or 5440s.

[aguahombre]

Phil, on 2015-November-16, 14:57, said:

Don't hate me but I'd bid 3N. My hand just isnt that good. All my stuff is in off suits and my hK is suspect. My stiff spade is dubious with shaky trump. I'd expect partner to move with a full jump shift and 55 or extras and 5143 or 5341 or 5440s.

Can we agree and still hate you?

I think we have all grazed in this same meadow with a couple of threads in 2014. If I bid 4d then, the posters figured out the construction where I had just passed the last makeable contract. But, if I bid 3nt, for sure it will make 1nt or six diamonds.

[cherdano]

Phil, on 2015-November-16, 14:57, said:

Don't hate me but I'd bid 3N. My hand just isnt that good. [...] I'd expect partner to move with a full jump shift and 55 or extras and 5143 or 5341 or 5440s.

Why? Can't see him moving with 54 shapes, and hardly ever with 55. If I want him to move on with these shapes, I would have bid 3S.

[Phil]

cherdano, on 2015-November-16, 16:41, said:

Why? Can't see him moving with 54 shapes, and hardly ever with 55. If I want him to move on with these shapes, I would have bid 3S.

He might advance with 5341 but I'd really hope he'd advance with 5143 since I can hold a lot of clubs.

[PhantomSac]

Phil, on 2015-November-16, 18:50, said:

He might advance with 5341 but I'd really hope he'd advance with 5143 since I can hold a lot of clubs.

So a jumpshift is basically forcing past 3N opposite the worst possible bid for the jumpshifter unless theyre 5422?

[PhantomSac]

Stephen Tu, on 2015-November-16, 09:25, said:

I also think 3♥ shows heart suit looking for 4♥.

In any case, if you bid 4♦, partner bids 4♥.
1. Should 4♥ guarantee the ace here, or can it be shortness?
2. Now what?

How do you get to slam opposite Axxxx Ax AKxx KQ or Axxxx AQx AKQx x but stay out opposite AKQxx AQx AJxx x or AKJxx AQx AQxx x?

Axxxx of spades is the complete nuts holding for this auction, and opener will know it (especially with a primed out 20 count?). Hand 1 is far stronger contextually than all of the other hands, it's not even close. That is not to say that having 4 low trumps will never create issues, obviously it can and will sometimes, but you are really underestimating having Axxxx on this auction. It is similar to having AKQJ of trumps. It would be amazing. I mean hand 1 is a very good slam opposite x xxx xxxxx Axxx.

[Phil]

PhantomSac, on 2015-November-17, 00:29, said:

So a jumpshift is basically forcing past 3N opposite the worst possible bid for the jumpshifter unless theyre 5422?

Forcing seems like an overbid but certainly partner appreciates the value of a 3rd club or 5th diamond?