[32519]

Partner opens the bidding with 2♣, 22+ HCP and you hold this hand -

---

After 2NT, is 3♣ the second negative or Stayman?
After 2NT, is 3♦ natural or a transfer to ♥?

So how do you explore for the ♦ slam in this sequence? Out of 16 tables, only 1 table found the ♦ slam. [Incidently, on the actual lie of the cards, 6NT also made, although no one actually bid it. With South's distribution, the ♦ slam is the safer option.]

[jeffford76]

Normally you play the same methods after 2♣ - 2♦ - 2NT as after a 2NT opener, albeit with different point ranges. So whether you can find the diamond slam depends on your methods for finding minor suit slams after 2NT openings.

[kenrexford]

I cannot believe this is even being asked. The same question bring ridicule when I hear it from others. Of course, systems are on after a delayed 2NT. Duh!

So, bid 3♣. If there is no heart fit, try 4♦. Seems easy.

[kayin801]

You don't need a second negative after the balanced 2NT unless 2NT is still GF and is not 22-24 or whatever you play it as. If you have the double negative after partner shows 22-24 you either pass or transfer into a suit to sign off. If you play 2NT as unlimited then you brought this problem upon yourself.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

kenrexford, on 2012-October-18, 14:53, said:

I cannot believe this is even being asked. The same question bring ridicule when I hear it from others. Of course, systems are on after a delayed 2NT. Duh!

So, bid 3♣. If there is no heart fit, try 4♦. Seems easy.

I can see when Opener has NO 4 card Major that Responder can show a 4M / 5+m as follows :

2NT - 3C ( regular Stayman )
3D ( no 4 card M ) - 4m

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
But when Opener HAS a 4 card Major :
2NT - 3C
3M - 4m .. does this mean a ) 4oM/5+m or b ) Advance cue agreeing M ??

[kenrexford]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-October-18, 15:14, said:

I can see when Opener has NO 4 card Major that Responder can show a 4M / 5+m as follows :

2NT - 3C ( regular Stayman )
3D ( no 4 card M ) - 4m

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
But when Opener HAS a 4 card Major :
2NT - 3C
3M - 4m .. does this mean a ) 4oM/5+m or b ) Advance cue agreeing M ??

Inormally play muppet or puppet, where this is not an issue, but even the with five it is. In that event, resolve strain first.

[32519]

This was the actual hand:

---

So now the bidding goes:
2♣-P-2♦-P
2NT-P-3♣ (Stayman)-P
3♠-P-4♦(?)-P

TWO4BRIDGE has an interesting question here:

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-October-18, 15:14, said:

I can see when Opener has NO 4 card Major that Responder can show a 4M / 5+m as follows :

2NT - 3C ( regular Stayman )
3D ( no 4 card M ) - 4m

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
But when Opener HAS a 4 card Major :
2NT - 3C
3M - 4m .. does this mean a ) 4oM/5+m or b ) Advance cue agreeing M ??

1. What is the expert standard agreement here, a or b?
2. If a, then does 4♦ over 3♠ become minorwood for the suit?
3. If minorwood, do you blast into 6♦ after hearing 3 keycards, or do you first enquire about the ♦ Queen?
4. If you first enquire about the ♦ Queen, how do you do so below 5♦?

[Zelandakh]

32519, on 2012-October-19, 02:16, said:

1. What is the expert standard agreement here, a or b?
2. If a, then does 4♦ over 3♠ become minorwood for the suit?
3. If minorwood, do you blast into 6♦ after hearing 3 keycards, or do you first enquire about the ♦ Queen?
4. If you first enquire about the ♦ Queen, how do you do so below 5♦?

1. I have seen it suggested to play this as 2-way but I personally think that is a recipe for disaster. My preference is to play it as natural and simply use 4♥ as a slam try in spades (without cues).
2. Absolutely not! We do not even know if we have a diamond fit, let alone making our only way to bid diamonds also demand key cards.
3. n/a
4. If you do not have enough space to ask for the trump queen below 5 of the agreed suit then you simply have to make the decision on whether to bid slam or not from the information you do have. Asking for the trump queen above 5 of the agreed suit is a grand try.

Once you have decided to go the Stayman route rather than treating the hand as a one-suiter, you need to have some kind of methods agreed over 4♦. Most will use 4NT as denying a fit here (4324) which leaves you the suit bids for agreeing diamonds. Some options are for Opener's 4♥ to be Kickback, with 4♠ and 5♣ as cue bids; or for 4♥ to show a bad hand for slam, 4♠ RKCB and 5♣ Last Train; or 4♥ a bad hand for slam, with 4♠/5♣/5♦/5♥ as key card responses; or simply for 4♥, 4♠ and 5♣ to be cue bids. Maybe the other posters will chip in with their methods - would that be helpful for you? In any case, some possible auctions to 6♦ with the options above are (2NT - 3♣; 3♠ - 4♦)

a. 4♥ - 4♠; 6♦ (4♥ RKCB, 4♠ 1 or 4)
b. 4♠ - 4NT; 6♦ (4♠ RKCB, 4NT 1 or 4)
c. 5♣ - 6♦ (5♣ good hand for slam with 3 key cards and 3+ diamonds)
d. 4♥ - 5♣; 5♠ - 6♦ (4♥, 5♣, 5♠ cues)

Finally, you might ignore the hearts here and just bid something simple like:

2NT - 4♣; 4♦ - 4♥; 4NT - 5♣; 5♠ - 6♦ (4♣ = diamonds, 4♥ = RKCB, 5♣ = Q ask)

[32519]

This was the actual bidding sequence of the only pair who found the ♦ slam. None of the bids were alerted, so I am not sure what they all meant.

2♣-3♦
3♠-3NT
4NT-5♣ [maybe showing 1 keycard for ♦?]
5♥-6♦ [don't know what the 5♥ bid can be]
All pass

Can anyone give a better description as to what all these bids could have meant?

[PhilKing]

32519, on 2012-October-19, 04:09, said:

This was the actual bidding sequence of the only pair who found the ♦ slam. None of the bids were alerted, so I am not sure what they all meant.

2♣-3♦
3♠-3NT
4NT-5♣ [maybe showing 1 keycard for ♦?]
5♥-6♦ [don't know what the 5♥ bid can be]
All pass

Can anyone give a better description as to what all these bids could have meant?

OK, I'll start. 2♣ strong 3♦ natural 6♦, all others don't know, but mostly absurd. Guessing 4NT was the old black.

[ahydra]

What happens if playing puppet stayman... happens to work here:

2C-2D
2NT-3C
3D (4cM)-3S (4H no 3S)
3NT (no 4H)-4D (must be natural since no fit was found)
etc.

I think Zelandakh's "one slam try bid for the major, others natural" method is not a bad idea, but it must be possible to play (some) bids as 2-way. Bidding theorists, your turn (though I see Ken has already suggested the bids should be natural).

ahydra

[PhilKing]

ahydra, on 2012-October-19, 06:07, said:

It must be possible to play (some) bids as 2-way. Bidding theorists, your turn (though I see Ken has already suggested the bids should be natural).

ahydra

Of course it's possible to play them as two way, but why on earth would you? You could play 4♣ as 7-way if you wanted.

Natural isn't best here, but multiple options are, by their nature, more difficult to handle and can end up wasting room. The problem here is that the "standard" way of showing a slam try over 3♠ is 4♥, which leaves no room for cues, which is what you are yearning for. The solution is to invert the meanings of 4♣ and 4♥ so that 4♥ (the idle bid) shows five clubs and 4♣ becomes the slam try. Now you get room to cue bid back, but retain the integrity of the bids that show a long minor. You lose room on the club hand, but it's way less frequent than wanting to agree partner's suit.

Show fit as low as possible, then explore.

[kenrexford]

You don't have to be artificial and sexy all the time. Sometimes, natural works.

But, if you want a sexy approach, I have a suggestion. After 2♣-2♦, 2NT-3♣(puppet/muppet), 3♦-3♠(hearts), 3NT, I propose the following highly technical approach, if Responder could have 4-4 majors:

Step 1: Slam try with length in the lowest non-major, no major-oriented fit
Step 2: Slam try with length in the highest non-major, no major-oriented fit
Step 3: Last Train to Clarksville for the highest non-minor
Step 4: Relay, forcing a pass to enable all non-slam game tries in the highest non-minor

Of course, as Responder cannot have 4-4 majors, this structure does not actually make sense. I am not sure why to include sexy tools to enable slam tries in the highest non-minor, as Responder has already denied the highest non-minor. Thus, it might make more sense to just normally use steps 1 and 2. Step 3 might make sense as showing shortness in the highest non-minor with equal length in the two non-major suits?

[32519]

PhilKing, on 2012-October-19, 05:32, said:

OK, I'll start. 2♣ strong 3♦ natural 6♦.

Let's use this as a new starting point. Then we might have an auction like this -
2♣ (22+ HCP)
3♦ (Natural, 6+ ♦, slam interest in the suit)
4♦ (Minorwood, co-operating with the slam try. With only 2-card support, opener would bid something else, in the hand posted this would be 3NT)
4♥ (1 key card)
6♦ (Good luck, hope this makes, I have the trump Queen)

[PhilKing]

32519, on 2012-October-19, 07:06, said:

Let's use this as a new starting point. Then we might have an auction like this -
2♣ (22+ HCP)
3♦ (Natural, 6+ ♦, slam interest in the suit)
4♦ (Minorwood, co-operating with the slam try. With only 2-card support, opener would bid something else, in the hand posted this would be 3NT)
4♥ (1 key card)
6♦ (Good luck, hope this makes, I have the trump Queen)

3♦ is a matter of style. I am forced to do this in one partnership, but I don't care for it for several reasons. I would raise to 4♦ as North, but you should get these notions of minorwood out of your head. This is not Minorwood! (You can choose to play any bid how you want, of course, but it's not according to Hoyle.)

If you choose to play it, and I strongly recommend that you don't, it normally applies after finding a fit. Some of us who play lots of relays play 4m as RKC after finding out partners strength and shape, but that is somewhat different.

[Codo]

If I have no way to find the diamond slam after Puppet stayman, I would not bid PS but whatever I have to show slam interest in diamonds. We have a fit, at least 29 HCPS, maybe more.

But luckily, I have a way to avoid this guess work, because there are solutions over PS. -As others pointed out.

[kenrexford]

Codo, on 2012-October-19, 08:37, said:

If I have no way to find the diamond slam after Puppet stayman, I would not bid PS but whatever I have to show slam interest in diamonds. We have a fit, at least 29 HCPS, maybe more.

But luckily, I have a way to avoid this guess work, because there are solutions over PS. -As others pointed out.

I just do not understand how anything could go wrong after Puppet Stayman unless Opener has five spades, and only then if you force all calls after that bid to show spade agreement, which seems off base.

[32519]

PhilKing, on 2012-October-19, 07:29, said:

3♦ is a matter of style. I am forced to do this in one partnership, but I don't care for it for several reasons. I would raise to 4♦ as North, but you should get these notions of minorwood out of your head. This is not Minorwood! (You can choose to play any bid how you want, of course, but it's not according to Hoyle.)

If you choose to play it, and I strongly recommend that you don't, it normally applies after finding a fit. Some of us who play lots of relays play 4m as RKC after finding out partners strength and shape, but that is somewhat different.

I'm not entirely convinced with this argument of yours. South (the weaker hand) with his first bid is showing in what suit he has slam interest. If North (the strong hand) has a fit in the suit, then who better to control the subsequent auction? With no fit, North will make some other bid. There is no need to first get tangled up in auctions showing suits in which South does not have any interest.

By the way, who is Hoyle? What is his claim to fame?

[PhilKing]

32519, on 2012-October-19, 11:41, said:

By the way, who is Hoyle? What is his claim to fame?

Nobody you need worry about - he died in 1769.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-October-18, 15:14, said:

I can see when Opener has NO 4 card Major that Responder can show a 4M / 5+m as follows :

2NT - 3C ( regular Stayman )
3D ( no 4 card M ) - 4m

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
But when Opener HAS a 4 card Major :
2NT - 3C
3M - 4m .. does this mean a ) 4oM/5+m or b ) Advance cue agreeing M ??

I had forgotten about the "standard" slam-tries after Stayman.... recently in thread back in February ( reply by phil_20686 ) and again here by another phil(king) post # 9 .

So, when Opener shows ♠ ( 3S ) after Stayman, if 4H! is ONLY slam-try, then 4C, or here, 4D would be natural ( 5+, slammish ) and indicate NO ♠ fit -- but have 4 cards ♥ :

32519, on 2012-October-19, 02:16, said:

This was the actual hand:

---

So now the bidding goes:
2♣-P-2♦-P
2NT-P-3♣ (Stayman)-P
3♠-P-4♦(?)-P

.. perhaps :
2C - 2D
2NT - 3C
3S - 4D
??
.. 4H! = kickback for ♦ ( can't be 4-4 in the Majors )
.. 4S = ♦ fit, cue-bid ( worried about 2 quick losers in either of the other 2 suits: ♥ or ♣
.. 4NT = no ♦ fit

After:
4H! - 4NT ( 1 key )
6D