[jmcw]

Playing Standard with 15-17 NT, you as an unpassed hand make a simple 2/1 (10+ pts.) response. Which of the following rebids by opener can be passed.
I play that only example 1 is forcing, do you agree.

1. New suit at 2 level
1♥>>2♣
2♦>>F1

2. Simple rebid of opener's suit
1♥>>2♣
2♥>>NF

3. 2NT rebid
1♥>>2♣
2NT>>NF

4. Simple raise of responder's suit
1♥>>2♣
3♣>>NF

[bluecalm]

I think all of them should be forcing.
If I were to play not GF 2/1 I think:
1H - 2C
2H - 3H

1H - 2C
2H - 2N

1H - 2C
X - 3C

Should be the only non-forcing sequences.

[manudude03]

SAYC says that responder promises a rebid with a 2/1 unless opener bids game.

[aguahombre]

manudude03, on 2012-March-18, 10:35, said:

SAYC says that responder promises a rebid with a 2/1 unless opener bids game.

Yes, that is the Yellow card; which simply means those who play standard, but their CC isn't yellow, have choices to agree upon. Bluecalm's choices seem reasonable; but the first choice is to decide whether 2/1 promises a rebid, then go from there, depending on that agreement.

[masse24]

manudude03, on 2012-March-18, 10:35, said:

SAYC says that responder promises a rebid with a 2/1 unless opener bids game.

This

[awm]

I think it is difficult to play with this many non-forcing bids. Some of the problem hands:

(1) Opener has six-plus hearts and a good hand, but not a very good suit. It seems he has to bid 3♥ now, which cramps the space substantially.
(2) Opener has a balanced hand 18/19. Great hand for slam opposite a 2/1 bid, but it seems like he has to bid 3NT which kills all the space.
(3) Opener has a raise of partner's minor with enough for game, but does not want to go past 3NT in case partner has some balanced hand. Again, stuck.

Among people who play "standard" in some American variety (as opposed to Acol, with its very-light 2/1 bids) I think it is rare to play opener's 2M rebid as non-forcing. The other sequences are much less clear though.

====================

Elianna and I play more in the SAYC style with some modifications specifically in the auction 1M-2♣. I'll give our 1♠-2♦ auction first because it's less weird:

1♠-2♦:

--- 2♥ = natural, F1
--- 2♠ = F1, could be any min without four hearts or a variety of awkward hands, responder's 2NT/3♦ is NF now
--- 2NT = 17+ to 19 balanced, GF
--- 3♣ = GF natural
--- 3♦ = GF natural
--- 3♥ = GF 5/5 or better
--- 3♠ = GF 6+ good ♠

1♥-2♣:
--- 2♦ = diamonds or any minimum; F1 but responder's 2♥/2NT/3♣ is now NF
--- All others GF and natural, 2NT is 17+ to 19

In general we play 1M-2♦-2M-3M as GF. The reason is that the 2M rebid does not promise a sixth card in the suit; we rebid 2M on many minimum hands as a default. Thus raising to 3M shows three (or more?) card support. With a three-card limit raise we don't bid this way; all our limit raises bid either 3M or 2NT directly over the 1M opening. In SAYC, all limit raises bid 3M directly over the opening (so again the sequence given should be forcing), but we have found that having two ways to limit raise is beneficial and that we don't lose much by including a limit raise hand in the 2NT forcing raise.

[Vampyr]

awm, on 2012-March-18, 11:40, said:

Among people who play "standard" in some American variety (as opposed to Acol, with its very-light 2/1 bids) I think it is rare to play opener's 2M rebid as non-forcing. The other sequences are much less clear though.

In Acol, most people actually do play 2/1 as at least a very good 9HCP; openers are typically light, though. In this style, (1) would be forcing, and (3) would depend on the opening NT range. I think that this, or 2/1 GF, is much simpler than "forcing to 2NT", or "promising another bid except when...". These styles seem to require a whole lot of duscussion about what sequences are forcing and how you manage to stop out of game. I find it puzzling that this is the way most American beginners are taught to play.

[HighLow21]

jmcw, on 2012-March-18, 10:09, said:

Playing Standard with 15-17 NT, you as an unpassed hand make a simple 2/1 (10+ pts.) response. Which of the following rebids by opener can be passed.
I play that only example 1 is forcing, do you agree.

1. New suit at 2 level
1♥>>2♣
2♦>>F1

2. Simple rebid of opener's suit
1♥>>2♣
2♥>>NF

3. 2NT rebid
1♥>>2♣
2NT>>NF

4. Simple raise of responder's suit
1♥>>2♣
3♣>>NF

Technically all are forcing for one round. You might take a view and pass the rebid under special circumstances, but only under VERY rare circumstances. Maybe once every 50 hands. And be fully prepared to apologize to partner if a cold game is missed.

One exception for me personally is (3), particularly if non-vulnerable. I bid 3NT instead of 2NT if I have 14+ points and partial stoppers in the unbids, because 3NT is really hard to defend. Plus, I don't want to linger in 2NT at IMPs, especially vulnerable. Thus 2NT says "I am dead minimum, I have exactly 5 hearts, and I don't like clubs." Responder can then leave me in 2NT on a minimum and suspicions of a semi-misfit.

Thus for me, (1), (2), and (4) are forcing except for the rare exception, and (3) is somewhere between invitational and semi-forcing.

[Codo]

1. New suit at 2 level
1♥>>2♣
2♦>>F1

To me this is basically unlimited, because a jump would show a 5/5 hand, so even a strong 5/4 hand will be bid this way.

2. Simple rebid of opener's suit
1♥>>2♣
2♥>>NF

For many, this is the catch all bid, which simply denies extra strength. This is the only sequence where a pass would be okay in some rare circumstances.

3. 2NT rebid
1♥>>2♣
2NT>>NF

2 NT is GF to me. There are still many who play it as 12-14 non forcing, but I stayed convinced that that approach is much worse.

4. Simple raise of responder's suit
1♥>>2♣
3♣>>NF

If this is non forcing, you will need some extra tricks to show the forcing raise. Seems like a bad idea to me. If this is forcing, you need to rebid 2 ♥ with a 1534 hand and show a delayed support with 3 ♣ later.

[phil_20686]

Vampyr, on 2012-March-18, 13:55, said:

In Acol, most people actually do play 2/1 as at least a very good 9HCP; openers are typically light, though.

Back in the day when I played a reasonable amount of acol, it was widely accepted that a 2/1 was any hand that would drive game opposite a strong nt, which naturally included plenty of 8 counts like Kx xxx AJTxxx xx and similar. You just cannot afford not to flatten boards where the auction in the other room is 1N-3N. In fact you should gain on this auction as opponents will tend to open 1N with a larger range than you would rebid 1N, so often you avoid game when they open a 14 count 1N and partner raises to game on a poor 9 etc.

Starting from this assumption is how you start to build your rebids.

[phil_20686]

awm, on 2012-March-18, 11:40, said:

I think it is difficult to play with this many non-forcing bids. Some of the problem hands:

(1) Opener has six-plus hearts and a good hand, but not a very good suit. It seems he has to bid 3♥ now, which cramps the space substantially.
(2) Opener has a balanced hand 18/19. Great hand for slam opposite a 2/1 bid, but it seems like he has to bid 3NT which kills all the space.
(3) Opener has a raise of partner's minor with enough for game, but does not want to go past 3NT in case partner has some balanced hand. Again, stuck.

Among people who play "standard" in some American variety (as opposed to Acol, with its very-light 2/1 bids) I think it is rare to play opener's 2M rebid as non-forcing. The other sequences are much less clear though.

Yes, I have always felt that sayc inhabits the worst of both worlds. In acol you can get round lots of the problems by lying and calling your hand 15-19 balanced and using a 2n rebid over a 2/1 as a GF. This is basically what you do with hands with poor 6 card suits or 4 card support for partners minor and cannot splinter. (acol uses a new suit after a 2/1 as F1 in its modern variants, so 1s-2c-3d/h = splinter in clubs).

[mgoetze]

jmcw, on 2012-March-18, 10:09, said:

Playing Standard with 15-17 NT, you as an unpassed hand make a simple 2/1 (10+ pts.) response. Which of the following rebids by opener can be passed.
I play that only example 1 is forcing, do you agree.

There are various degrees to which a 2/1 can be forcing in standardish systems:

1. Forcing to 2M
2. Forcing to 2NT
3. Responder promises a rebid
4. Gameforcing unless suit rebid
5. Absolutely Gameforcing

You seem to be playing #1.

Do I agree that this is the default agreement when playing "Standard American"? No, I believe it is #3.

Do I agree that this is the best way to play? No, I believe that is #5.

[Siegmund]

#2-4 are a question to ask any new serious SA partner.

All three NF was how I learned in the ancient past, and was/is a very common style among the mediocre-and-worse club players.

For many years I played with a serious partner with whom #4 was forcing, #2 and 3 were not, and we did a lot of inventing fake bids like 1H-2C-2S to handle the hands we were afraid of being passed on. I have since switched to a style where #3 is also forcing.

As mentioned by many others, "2/1 promises a rebid", in which case all of these are F1, is a very common style, and an easy one to agree with a new partner if you don't want a long discussion.