Did the Director get the right? Was I correct in my actions?
#1
Posted 2011-November-24, 17:30
LHO deals, they Red we White:
(1D) 1S (2H) 3S*
(P) 4S All pass
After my 3S bid LHO asked partner what it meant and partner explained it was a stronger bid than 4S.
At the end of the auction I explained that in this competitive situation it was preemptive and showed 4 spades only with no description of strength.
LHO, also an EBU Director, said he wasn't happy and wanted to reserve his rights. I wasn't happy with this state of affairs as I don't like this idea of a possible challenge hanging over me (well partner) but more because I thought that if there was a problem they had a right to withdraw their last pass and make a bid and not get in to a bun fight over damage.
I called for the Director who, after the explanation of the problem, asked me:
What does our card say? Nothing specific on this auction but its in our notes.
I can't remember his exact words but he then said that was the end of the issue and we should carry on.
1. Was he right? Both LHO and I thought he should be given the opportunity to withdraw his last bid.
2. Was my action to call the Director OK or should I have waited until the end of the hand and see what Opps had to say?
Thanks in advance,
Simon
PS Director is a playing Director if that makes any difference.
#2
Posted 2011-November-24, 17:56
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#3
Posted 2011-November-24, 19:36
Edit: Yes, it seems like Law 21 says this is allowed!
This post has been edited by Rossoneri: 2011-November-24, 19:38
Unless explicitly stated, none of my views here can be taken to represent SCBA or any other organizations.
#4
Posted 2011-November-24, 19:54
P.S., was partner thinking about some other auction or some other planet which uses pinocle decks? Did West think maybe the original overcall was on a yarboro?
#5
Posted 2011-November-24, 20:21
blackshoe, on 2011-November-24, 17:56, said:
My understanding of events suggests that 4th hand should call the TD to say that he believes 2nd
hand misinformed the opponents. The TD should require that the correction be made; and based on the fact that where 3S actually does not promise any honors while the explanation was that it did, the TD should rule MI.
note- that an explanation of better than 4S [which for a different partnership might have been true but was false for this one] is still inadequate without knowing what 4S promises
And then ascertain from the opponents if they would do something different [particularly after 3S [privately]. Then cancel the last pass giving dealer the opportunity of doing something different than pass.
#6
Posted 2011-November-25, 01:22
Did the TD investigate adequately? No, I do not think so.
Should LHO have had his last pass back? Yes, I believe so.
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#7
Posted 2011-November-25, 02:01
SimonFa, on 2011-November-24, 17:30, said:
(P) 4S All pass
After my 3S bid LHO asked partner what it meant and partner explained it was a stronger bid than 4S.
I think it is ridiculous for someone to claim to be misinformed by this explanation. It clearly applies to a different auction (e.g. one in which the overcalling side were already forced to game). LHO should either have ignored the explanation or called the TD and sought clarification at the time. Claiming that your were misinformed afterwards does the game and atmosphere of club no favours whatsoever.
"Robin Barker is a mathematician. ... All highly skilled in their respective fields and clearly accomplished bridge players."
#8
Posted 2011-November-25, 02:08
I have read the rule books but being a beginner find them almost unintelligible and I have found these forums a great source of understanding, so a general thanks as well.
Simon
#9
Posted 2011-November-25, 02:09
#10
Posted 2011-November-25, 04:20
RMB1, on 2011-November-25, 02:01, said:
Do you not know anyone that still plays 3S here as a limit raise and 4S as preemptive? If LHO had a weak hand with some hearts they might just decide to bid 4H over an invitational 3S to suggest going to 5H over their 4S but not over a weak 3S in case partner tries to double their 4S. OK this is not especially likely, but it is not impossible. Saying that the explanation "clearly applies to a different auction" though is very much an overbid.
@Simon, Club players are rather fond of "reserving their rights" because the vast majority have no idea what it means. If someone does so you can try asking what rights they are reserving - they will probably say in case of damage and you can answer that this is not a right they can reserve. If they say that you have UI for your final pass then you can simply agree (you almost certainly had no LA). Or you can simply ignore it. As an aside, you could legitimately reserve your rights on this hand too as LHOs comment could be construed to suggest they might have considered bidding over 3S which would suggest some heart values, and therefore a heart lead. As others have said, the Director could have done better. On your specific questions:-
1. The Director was wrong and LHO should have had his final pass back.
2. Not only was your action to call the Director OK the laws say that you must do this. The vast majority do not call the Director for this though.
#11
Posted 2011-November-25, 07:27
Zelandakh, on 2011-November-25, 04:20, said:
I don't think that is the agreement described by "stronger than 4♠"; that would be "invitational" or similar. "Stronger than 4♠" suggests that you can't play below 4♠; why else would you compare it to 4♠ in the first place?
#12
Posted 2011-November-25, 08:18
Zelandakh, on 2011-November-25, 04:20, said:
Careful, there! If the WBFLC get wind of this, they'll change "must" to "should".
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#13
Posted 2011-November-25, 11:10
This is a case where in the ACBL, I would wonder about the dreaded caveat in the Alert Procedure: "Note also that an opponent who actually knows or suspects what is happening, even though not properly informed, may not be entitled to redress if he or she chooses to proceed without clarifying the situation." In the EBU, I believe there is a similar phrasing, which is what Robin is basing his argument off.
But all of that is the TDs job to work out. If she's a playing TD, well, then she's got that much less time to play her hand. She may say "I'll look at it later" - either when she has time, or after she's played it - but she still needs to do the groundwork.
I don't know which one applies to this case - I would have to be there.
#14
Posted 2011-November-26, 01:08
campboy, on 2011-November-25, 07:27, said:
The way I think they may have intended it is as "less preemptive than 4♠". Pedrhaps they bid 4 with 5 cards and a very weak hand, they bid only 3 with 4 cards and a moderately weak hand. Or maybe 3♠ is allowed to have some side strength, so partner shouldn't give up on looking for slam if he has a rock-crusher, while 4♠ is really discouraging.
#15
Posted 2011-November-26, 07:36
Zelandakh, on 2011-November-25, 04:20, said:
@Simon, Club players are rather fond of "reserving their rights" because the vast majority have no idea what it means. If someone does so you can try asking what rights they are reserving - they will probably say in case of damage and you can answer that this is not a right they can reserve.
I think I need to know more about those because its usually the better players who do it and most people expect them to know what they are doing. I'll go an have a look at the EBU website.
As for partner's comment about 3S being stronger than 4S, we play this in an uncontested auction, and shows 4-card support and 11/12 HCP, with 3-card support and 10/11HCP we use a delayed raise to 3S. In competitive auction we just jump to the level of fit. Basic stuff, but we are in the B/I category.
Once again, thanks for the comments,
Simon
#16
Posted 2011-November-26, 09:09
I strongly prefer "do you agree there was a hesitation" to "I'd like to reserve my rights".
#17
Posted 2011-November-26, 09:51
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#18
Posted 2011-November-26, 10:06
campboy, on 2011-November-26, 09:09, said:
Yes, sounds like a less confrontational way of putting it.
blackshoe, on 2011-November-26, 09:51, said:
If the reaction is "no", why would the side which claims there was no hesitation be required to call the Director? They are claiming no no B.I.T occurred.
"Director, please."
"How may I be of service?"
"We didn't hesititate (until now) in the auction."
"And, how may I be of service?"
#19
Posted 2011-November-26, 10:29
aguahombre, on 2011-November-26, 10:06, said:
If the reaction is "no", why would the side which claims there was no hesitation be required to call the Director? They are claiming no no B.I.T occurred.
"Director, please."
"How may I be of service?"
"We didn't hesititate (until now) in the auction."
"And, how may I be of service?"
Quote
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#20
Posted 2011-November-26, 10:50
"Do you agree there was a hesitation?"
"NO." (and maybe even joined in by the others at the table)
"O.K., I accept that."
No one has "reserved" anything, they asked a question and got an answer.