[mikeh]

JLOGIC, on Jul 16 2010, 03:16 PM, said:

Quote

One thing to consider is that I didn't bid 4N, I bid 5C. Sorry in advance to mikeh for this, but I'm a big keycard bidder, especially when the rest of my hand is kings. If I did have a hand like xx Kx AKJxxxx Kx I would always bid keycard over 4S.

No apologies needed....if I held that hand, and had keycard available on that auction (strange tho it may seem, I prefer methods in which I don't have keycard at that point and might be regretting that preference on this sequence) I would have used it as well...I mean....with that hand you KNOW what to do over any response...which is the key to keycard (sorry about that).

In my preferred method, I bid 4N over 4♠ as a hand too strong for 5♦...I'd hear 5♣, and would bid 6♣....I'd expect partner to bid only 6N now....I will have telegraphed a spade issue. Admittedly, it is difficult to be objective when knowing the hands.

[gwnn]

is 2C really so retarded as its complete omission here would suggest?

[bluecalm]

Btw, any of you play version of RKCB where you can show void along with 2 keycards and queen ? (or later after queen ask?).
It seems that it would solve the problem of this hand as well.

[hanp]

bluecalm, on Jul 16 2010, 03:43 PM, said:

Btw, any of you play version of RKCB where you can show void along with 2 keycards and queen ? (or later after queen ask?).
It seems that it would solve the problem of this hand as well.

I wrote in this thread that we indeed play that.

I'm not sure what you mean when you write that it would solve the problem. Yes, it would solve the problem on this hand if I choose to bid keycards, but it doesn't solve the problem of deciding whether to bid keycards. The ability to show voids doesn't help to distinguish x Kx AKJxxxx Kxx from xx Kx AKJxxxx Kx. On the first hand I prefer to play 7D, on the second I prefer 6NT.

[JLOGIC]

gwnn, on Jul 16 2010, 03:43 PM, said:

is 2C really so retarded as its complete omission here would suggest?

2C is weird but not retarded. Sometimes it will help partner judge his club holding better, but it will be tough to get him to understand you have SEVEN good diamonds later.

It does have the advantage of being less limited than a 2D rebid, and that could work in your favor.

I think a vast majority of people are rebidding diamonds because that is the main feature of the hand, and by far the most likely suit we belong in if we can't play NT, and after bidding 2C it's hard to get partner to let you play diamonds in a stiff.

[jdonn]

JLOGIC, on Jul 16 2010, 03:16 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jul 16 2010, 02:24 PM, said:

If you can't find out whether a grand is either cold or on a finesse but there is a reasonable chance of either, isn't that good enough odds to just bid it? Especially when you're so strong that everyone will be in slam, assuming partner's 3♦ rebid is normal.

Doesn't he need me to have stiff king of hearts or a heart void or KQ tight of hearts with a doubleton spade in order for it to be cold?

Or KQJ tight hehe, or if it's KQx obviously the break + squeeze or finesse is very good though not cold. Even if it's KJx you have the chance of heart lead + drop heart queen + spade finesse, though yes I know lots of the times I'm counting they lead a spade and you have to commit early. So anyway it's sometimes cold, sometimes way better than a finesse, and never worse than a finesse. I still like those odds.

JLOGIC, on Jul 16 2010, 03:20 PM, said:

If partner bids 3N, I won't be ashamed of my dummy at all.

Wow I would be completely ashamed of it, not to mention worried to death about hearts. Hope diamonds run!

[JLOGIC]

The more I think about it, the more I'm still not seeing it.

With a hand like xx KJx AKJxxx KJ I would have bid NT at some point by now.

I can't think of that many hands consistent with my bidding where 6N is right.

[Cascade]

JLOGIC, on Jul 17 2010, 09:35 AM, said:

The more I think about it, the more I'm still not seeing it.

With a hand like xx KJx AKJxxx KJ I would have bid NT at some point by now.

I can't think of that many hands consistent with my bidding where 6N is right.

Do you mean before 4♦?

Or after 4♦ can you get back to NTs?

[ONEferBRID]

This is one auction where a 5NT! bid would be a GSF and not a choice of slams.

J-Lo aptly pointed out that the original auction has Opener showing at least 7 cards Diam. Then, all Responder wants to know is for Opener to have at least ONE outside K ( the Sp K would be sweet ... surely Opener has at least one king for his 3D-jump ) and enough Cl to ruff 2...(this is the unknown ); and, of course, the A K of Diam to count to 13:

Take the original auction:

1D - 1S
3D - 4D
4H - 5NT! ( bid 7D with 2 of the top 3; otherwise 6D )
7D

[Siegmund]

An adjunct to GSF which I find very useful, incidentally, is this...

all bid past six of the trump suit show the missing top trumps; but the jump to 7D specifically says "...and at least one of my previous cuebids was shortness not strength, DO NOT CONVERT ME." With top trumps and all honest cuebids, bid 6NT.

[bluecalm]

I am sure my thinking about 6NT (blunder) is influenced by standard of fields I usually play in. They are weakish and bidding good (makeable) slam will get you decent results even if 6NT is laydown and often it will be near top if slam is not 100% obvious as it well may not be.

[JLOGIC]

Cascade, on Jul 16 2010, 04:39 PM, said:

JLOGIC, on Jul 17 2010, 09:35 AM, said:

The more I think about it, the more I'm still not seeing it.

With a hand like xx KJx AKJxxx KJ I would have bid NT at some point by now.

I can't think of that many hands consistent with my bidding where 6N is right.

Do you mean before 4♦?

Or after 4♦ can you get back to NTs?

I mean I would open 1N or rebid 2N.

Thinking about it some more, since I have perfect info about how I bid:

1) If I was 6322 I cannot bid keycard over 4S with 2 without the queen since I am forcing to slam opposite 2 without the queen which is not good (it's not terrible if I'm just on diamonds, but I might not be solid elsewhere).

2) However if I'm 6322 with both kings, I would always rebid 2N or open 1N. There are 6322s where I would bid 3D but they would generally contain prime (anti positional) hands, or a hand with no stopper in the other suits. I am not sure if this is normal, or if Han can assume this having never really played with me though.

3) If I have 7 diamonds and both kings I will just bid keycard over 4S. I have less side losers, and there's a good chance even if partner has no queen we have a 7-3 fit. If we have a 7-2 fit, maybe diamonds will come in!

4) Therefore, I don't have both side kings, which means I have shortness in one of the other suits.

Even if these are not 100 % in Hans mind they should probably worry him enough out of bidding 6N.

Also, I said earlier good luck getting to 7D after rebidding 2D, but this also is untrue. If my partner ends up bidding keycard after I have denied 3 spades, when I show 2 with a heart void he will know I have 0274. That being said, he will need to know about the club king still in order to bid 7. I'm not sure if that can be done after 4N-5N, 6C might be looking for the trump queen. Even if not, he might need the SK.

That said I'm sure you can construct an auction where I cuebid clubs before partner bids keycard. If that happens he can easily bid 7.

So lol @ me!

[hanp]

I don't know bluecalm, usually if it goes 1D - 1S - 3D and you have a 17-count you can be sure that some others are in slam as well.

The comments by ONEferBRID seem complete jibberish to me but Sigmund seems to like them so perhaps he can translate.

[mikeh]

ONEferBRID, on Jul 16 2010, 04:41 PM, said:

This is one auction where a 5NT! bid would be a GSF and not a choice of slams.

J-Lo aptly pointed out that the original auction has Opener showing at least 7 cards Diam.  Then, all Responder  wants to know is for Opener to have at least ONE outside K ( the Sp K would be sweet ... surely Opener has at least one king for his 3D-jump ) and enough Cl to ruff 2...(this is the unknown ); and, of course,  the A K of Diam to count to 13:

Take the original auction:

1D - 1S
3D - 4D
4H - 5NT! ( bid 7D with 2 of the top 3; otherwise 6D )
7D

1. which call promised 7 diamonds? I didn't see anyone, let alone Justin, claim he'd shown the 7th diamond.

2. GSF over 4♥ is, frankly, idiotic. As the two participants pointed out, correctly in my view, responder has to focus on the spade situation. There is NOTHING about the auction that suggested that partner could pitch a second spade, nor anything that suggested he had a stiff or void spade.

[Siegmund]

Quote

The comments by ONEferBRID seem complete jibberish to me but Siegmund seems to like them so perhaps he can translate.

On the posted cards, I don't happen to think much of at least two bids in 1D-1S-3D-4D-4H-5NT either.

That said... the gist of what I had to say about GSF is...

OP had an auction that began 1D-1S-3D (yes, we know that may not be the best choice) and continued with cuebids (yes, we know not everyone plays the same cuebidding style.)

In that context -- it's possible to have an auction where cuebidding convinces you that the side suits are well under control, but you don't know what the trumps look like. (On the actual cards, we might discover that SK is missing and not be so keen about looking for 7.) There can be value in cuebids (at the 4 and 5 levels) and GSF, rather than RKC. One of the possible advantages is helping prevent a bad notrump conversion if that allows you to distinguish between shortness and high-card controls. I happen to have a toy (adapted from Ted Brashler) that helps me with the "6NT or 7m?" question, and I was briefly sharing it.

[ONEferBRID]

I hate to bust your collective bubbles, but the focus on Spades is not needed after the 3D-jump

mikeh, on Jul 16 2010, 04:55 PM, said:

ONEferBRID, on Jul 16 2010, 04:41 PM, said:

This is one auction where a 5NT! bid would be a GSF and not a choice of slams.

J-Lo aptly pointed out that the original auction has Opener showing at least 7 cards Diam.   Then, all Responder  wants to know is for Opener to have at least ONE outside K ( the Sp K would be sweet ... surely Opener has at least one king for his 3D-jump ) and enough Cl to ruff 2...(this is the unknown ); and, of course,  the A K of Diam to count to 13:

Take the original auction:

1D - 1S
3D - 4D
4H - 5NT! ( bid 7D with 2 of the top 3; otherwise 6D )
7D

1. which call promised 7 diamonds? I didn't see anyone, let alone Justin, claim he'd shown the 7th diamond.

2. GSF over 4♥ is, frankly, idiotic. As the two participants pointed out, correctly in my view, responder has to focus on the spade situation. There is NOTHING about the auction that suggested that partner could pitch a second spade, nor anything that suggested he had a stiff or void spade.

If Dummy can ruff TWO Clubs, you don't care about the Sp holding as long as Opener has ONE outside K and 7 cards Diams:
Tricks are: sA, hA, cA, 7d, 2-♣ruffs and ONE outside K.

If only 6 cards Diam, you need TWO outside K's.

If EIGHT cards Diam, you don't need any outside Kings !

Then there is always the Spade hook ( a la Josh ).

Sry about the Justin statement, I thought he meant that the 3D-jump implied 7 cards... or a stronger hand w/6.

[Cyberyeti]

I think we'd bid this:

1D-1S
3D-4H (normal keycard, 4N would be voidwood in hearts)
5H-5S (2, Q, void H - S AK or AQ, all keycards present, do you have the missing spade honour ?)
6C-7D (no but I have KC and am still interested)

This might be laydown or might be on the spade finesse.

Would he bid like this with xxx, void, AKxxxxx, KQJ, maybe, but I've been in worse grands. He's found a 3D rebid with AK (no Q) to 7 or more (he showed the Q) diamonds and no high cards in hearts or spades, I think the chance of an 8th diamond or 2074 shape make bidding 7 with the odds.

[gszeszycki]

Matchpoints.

AQJxx
Axxx
Qxx
A

10x
-
AK109xxx
KJxx

1D - 1S
3D - 4D
4H - 4S
5C - 5H
6D - 6NT

Down with 7D making.

I ATB 100% N for 4d bid just no good reason to take control of the bidding that way so soon. The power and distribution for a 3d bid are just way too numerous at this point. For starters you could have a spade fit which would score better than
diamonds. Start with 3H maybe youll get lucky and p will bid 3s which your p might do with xxx or (even better Kx). If P bids 3n (as they should with this hand) you can then bid 4d to show dia slam interest having learned at least that opener has
wasted values opposite your short club.The 3n bid would also have a tendency to severly limit the power of opening bidder since they had a nice 3c bid avalable over 1s they did not use.

[aguahombre]

mikeh, on Jul 16 2010, 03:55 PM, said:

1. which call promised 7 diamonds? I didn't see anyone, let alone Justin, claim he'd shown the 7th diamond.

Well, we did show the 7th diamond on one try:

1D-1S
2D-2H(F)
3D.......but still didn't get to 13 tricks ---still stopping in 6D. Imagine 6D would actually score quiet well, since 6NT is a boo boo. But still not proud of missing 7d.

the 7th trump might also be discovered on a diff auction if North asks for keys and south shows the queen.

[hanp]

What's this we, Justin and I had this hand in bidding practice, there were no opposition hands so maybe 6NT makes.