[KamalK]

Hello Friends,

Playing SAYC. I was East at the Table. North opened 2♣ strong and they went -1. Lead was small♥

All 4 at table had no pship agreements. (They play 2NT as regular 20-21 and so North was right in a way.)

I am always in a quandary with such borderline hands.

1. Should open 2♣ strong with 22 HCP as a rule?

2. Or downgrade to 2NT because of the ♣ doubleton when the J may be worthless?

3. Should 2♣ be either a specific number of sure tricks and/or 23+ HCP with such a balanced hand?

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 Pass  2♣    Pass  2♦
 Pass  2NT   Pass  4NT
 Pass  5♣    Pass  5NT
 Pass  6♦    Pass  7NT
 Pass  Pass  Pass  

All suggestions welcome. Thanks in advance.

Warm regards

Kamal

[mike777]

2c=ok
2d=ok
2nt=ok
rest insane

[RichMor]

mike777, on Aug 21 2008, 04:00 AM, said:

2c=ok
2d=ok
2nt=ok
rest insane

Can't put it any better.

[HeavyDluxe]

My thoughts, FWIW:

North's 2♣ followed by 2NT is fine. I'm pretty sure I prefer that to opening 2NT direct. I've got big cards.

From South's seat - Flat hands sure seem to play up to, and not a whole lot beyond, their high card power... So, with south's hand, I'd bid 6NT direct and then be done.

2♣ - 2♦
2NT - 6NT

[gwnn]

2♣ please, all those aces and you want to downgrade because of one jack? You should open 2♣ even with ♣A2, let alone AJ.

[inquiry]

HeavyDluxe has it (just about) right.....

An opening bid of 2NT shows 20-21 hcp. Norths hand is a very good 22, so 2C followed by 2NT is correct. Over 2NT, south can do "simple math", minimum hcp total is 22+13 = 35, clearly enough for 6NT, and if opener happens to have a 24 point max, 24+13 = 37 and is in grand slam range... that leaves two possible auctions...

2C 2D
2N 6N
Pass

or,

2C 2D
2N 5N
?

Second auction, opener can bid 7N with a max (or rebid 6 of a four card suit or 7 of a five card suit with a max, looking for the grand in suit).

On the auction given in the original post, the shoes fell off..... First, 4NT is not Blackwood or Keycard blackwood. It should ask for slam if opener has a max. Opener has a good minimum for this auction, but not a max. So he should pass 4NT. If opener does have a max, he should do the same response schedule. 5 of a suit with biddable four card suit, and 6 of a suit with a five card suit. So 5C is wrong over 4NT on many levels.

[SoTired]

1) 4N over 2N is an quantitative NT raise asking opener to bid 6N with a max and pass with a min
2) Even if 4N was blackwood, it is not the questiion that responder wanted to ask
3) Responder has 13 HCP. 13+22 = 35 enuf for 6N. 13+24 = 37 enuf for 7N. So what responder wants to ask is "Bid 6N with min and 7N with max". That bid is 5N over 2N.

Opener has 22 HCP and should open 2C and rebid 2N. KISS.

[brianshark]

Who bid 5♣ over 4NT??? It really irritates me how people don't know how to pass quantitative 4N bids.

HeavyDluxe, on Aug 21 2008, 01:21 PM, said:

2♣ - 2♦
2NT - 6NT

This looks right to me.

[neilkaz]

brianshark, on Aug 21 2008, 09:32 AM, said:

Who bid 5♣ over 4NT??? It really irritates me how people don't know how to pass quantitative 4N bids.

HeavyDluxe, on Aug 21 2008, 01:21 PM, said:

2♣ - 2♦
2NT - 6NT

This looks right to me.

The reason so many don't pass quant 4NT bids is that they either don't know that the bid is quant. (Seriously 4♣ Gerber is standard here, at least for non experts and pick-up PD's) or they aren't sure if it's quant or blackwood.

.. neilkaz ..

[NickRW]

inquiry, on Aug 21 2008, 02:04 PM, said:

2C 2D
2N 5N
?

Yeah, we use 4N as quantative invite to 6 and 5N as forcing to 6 + invite to 7 on this sort of auction.

About the hand valuation thing someone else mentioned - yeah the jack in the ♣AJ doubleton is not the hand's best feature. However, if you're going to mark the hand down in that regard, one should also note that the hand has two tens - two decent intermediates in hand bristling with aces and pictures is a relatively unusual good feature. So, I wouldn't downgrade the hand overall.

Nick

[neilkaz]

NickRW, on Aug 21 2008, 12:33 PM, said:

inquiry, on Aug 21 2008, 02:04 PM, said:

2C 2D
2N 5N
?

Yeah, we use 4N as quantative invite to 6 and 5N as forcing to 6 + invite to 7 on this sort of auction.

About the hand valuation thing someone else mentioned - yeah the jack in the ♣AJ doubleton is not the hand's best feature. However, if you're going to mark the hand down in that regard, one should also note that the hand has two tens - two decent intermediates in hand bristling with aces and pictures is a relatively unusual good feature. So, I wouldn't downgrade the hand overall.

Nick

I thought that was very standard, and if someone intends 5N as pick a slam, they can bid something else first since without finding out something about opener's hand they have no other use for 5N.

As far as the opening, this hand with 4 aces and two potentially useful attached 10's is closer to 23 than 22 pts. I clearly open 2C then 2N (22-24) but will decline any quant invites.

[NickRW]

neilkaz, on Aug 21 2008, 05:42 PM, said:

I thought that was very standard, and if someone intends 5N as pick a slam, they can bid something else first since without finding out something about opener's hand they have no other use for 5N.

Probably is It comes up so infrequently however that a lot of people might forget and, indeed, probably quite a lot of authors don't bother to mention it. I don't remember reading it anywhere myself.

Nick

[vuroth]

My question is, should I be auto-doubling when they reach 7NT after 4NT quantitative?

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#1 what you open, depends on system agreement,
if 2NT shows 20-22, than 2NT, if it showes 20-21,
you have to find another bid.
Because of the Jacks, this is not a particular great
22 count, not a bad one either, so I would not upgrade,
but also not downgrade.
#2 depends, if 2C followed by 2NT can be passed and showes
22-23 that would be fine.
#3 both

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Lobowolf]

KamalK, on Aug 21 2008, 03:57 AM, said:

Hello Friends,

Playing SAYC. I was East at the Table. North opened 2♣ strong and they went -1. Lead was small♥

All 4 at table had no pship agreements. (They play 2NT as regular 20-21 and so North was right in a way.)

I am always in a quandary with such borderline hands.

1. Should open 2♣ strong with 22 HCP as a rule?

2. Or downgrade to 2NT because of the ♣ doubleton when the J may be worthless?

3. Should 2♣ be either a specific number of sure tricks and/or 23+ HCP with such a balanced hand?

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 Pass  2♣    Pass  2♦
 Pass  2NT   Pass  4NT
 Pass  5♣    Pass  5NT
 Pass  6♦    Pass  7NT
 Pass  Pass  Pass  

All suggestions welcome. Thanks in advance.

Warm regards

Kamal

1. Yes, as a general rule, and especially with a balanced hand, unless you have a very strong reason to downgrade it. Many of partner's bids will be quantitative and it's hard to evaluate the response to a NT opener when you deviate.

2. As others have pointed out, that's only 1 (slight) negative; on the positive side, you have 4 aces (which are undervalued by the 4-3-2-1 point count system), 2 tens (ditto), and only one spot card under an 8.

3. If your hand it balanced, so that you're going to rebid in NT, then barring very extreme cases, you should just rely on counting points. 2C followed by 2NT is 22-24. It's when your hand is UNbalanced, and the alternatives are opening 1 of a suit or bidding 2C then rebidding in a suit that you should count tricks (usually to upgrade a hand that can provide a truckload of tricks because of distribution, but falls short on the "22 HCP" requirement. You don't want to open 1 of a suit and miss a game when partner has just a king that would provide the 10th (or 9th) trick.

[P_Marlowe]

vuroth, on Aug 25 2008, 10:44 AM, said:

My question is, should I be auto-doubling when they reach 7NT after 4NT quantitative?

Do you want , that they do this again or do you want,
that they stop it?

As it is, a double is a bad call, it wont win a lot of points,
if it was righ, but will cost something, if it was wrong, well
at least if talk about IMPs.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: And they may play quantitative Ace asking ...