[jillybean]

Playing swiss teams at the club the other night we had a few misunderstandings,
here's the worst.

(2♥) P (P) 3♣
(P) 3♦?

Should 3♦ be played forcing or non forcing?

[pclayton]

By a hand that passed over the preempt? Can't be forcing Kathryn.

[rogerclee]

I think AQ xx xx KJxxxxx should balance 3♣ and then pass 3♦.

But for the other 99.9% of hands that I have when I balance 3♣, 3♦ is forcing.

[pclayton]

Jlall, on Aug 16 2008, 10:14 PM, said:

pclayton, on Aug 17 2008, 12:51 AM, said:

By a hand that passed over the preempt? Can't be forcing Kathryn.

Huh? You can pass with 13/14 counts and 5 diamonds over 2H pretty easily, and you can also pass with red 2 suiters that have like infinite points pretty easily too. The bottom limit of a 3C balance is not very low either.

I confess I've haven't thought about this lately, but I could just as easily have a ten count that wants to bid 3♦ instead of a 14.

Does 4th hand really need to take another call with something like: Axx xx Ax KQxxxx?

[fromageGB]

I think the question to a large extent depends on what the 3♣ bid is. For me it's a forcing bid, so 3♦ is certainly not forcing.

[gwnn]

fromageGB, on Aug 17 2008, 09:35 PM, said:

I think the question to a large extent depends on what the 3♣ bid is. For me it's a forcing bid, so 3♦ is certainly not forcing.

You play Fishbein?

[fromageGB]

With both my regular partners I play that a direct bid is forcing, and a non-forcing bid is made via a Lebensohl type 2NT (transfer to 3♣ for overcaller to bid the non-forcing suit). I thought this was pretty normal.

In response to a takeout double we also use the Lebensohl structure - if advancer wants to make a non-forcing reply she starts with 2NT.

If, as I understand this thread to imply, the direct 3♣ overcall is not forcing, how would you make a forcing bid? Maybe this is why I go wrong with scratch partners!

[han]

There was no takeout double.

Also, a usually 3C is not played as forcing after a takeout double either, when playing lebensohl.

[jillybean]

fwiw we dont play leb

[han]

lebensohl has nothing to do with this anyway.

[jillybean]

And I have no idea what Fishbein is!

[gwnn]

You don't want to know!!!

Evil convention explained here, don't read:

Spoiler

Fishbein would mean that a double over a preempt is penalty and the cheapest bid is nonforcing takeout. Some play that Fishbein is off in balancing seat, which arguably makes even less sense (well, we're comparing 0.01 to 0.001 here on a 10 scale).

[pclayton]

lol I doubt a Fishbein 3C call is forcing anyway.

[jillybean]

Needless to say, I thought 3♦ was forcing. I had an opening hand with ♥,♦'s and played 3♦+4.
I guess I should have bid 3♥ to make sure I wasnt passed.

[FrancesHinden]

gwnn, on Aug 17 2008, 09:50 PM, said:

You don't want to know!!!

Evil convention explained here, don't read:

Spoiler

Fishbein would mean that a double over a preempt is penalty and the cheapest bid is nonforcing takeout. Some play that Fishbein is off in balancing seat, which arguably makes even less sense (well, we're comparing 0.01 to 0.001 here on a 10 scale).

This weekend we had the auction, at game all,
P P 3C x all pass
The double was penalties as they were playing Fishbein.
The 3C opener was a fairly sound Jx Qx xx AQ108xxx
That was a swift -1100, although team-mates salvaged something by playing their tricky 4H contract extremely well to manage +620.

[y66]

Why is this "not debatable"?

Is it because, in general, pard will always have a good suit for 3C and we don't waste bids looking for marginally better places to play at the 3-level?

Is OP's auction fundamentally different from (2H) P (P) 2S : (P) ? when pard may be straining to balance?

[brianshark]

FrancesHinden, on Aug 18 2008, 11:59 AM, said:

This weekend we had the auction, at game all,
P P 3C x all pass
The double was penalties as they were playing Fishbein.
The 3C opener was a fairly sound Jx Qx xx AQ108xxx
That was a swift -1100, although team-mates salvaged something by playing their tricky 4H contract extremely well to manage +620.

I kibbed Hanlon/McGann on that board. Hanlon in 2nd hand has 6 hearts to the J, 2 outside Kings and a singleton club. He passed and then made a re-opening double and they got their 1100 anyway. Then he turns to me and says something along the lines of "see... that's why this hand isn't a weak 2 vulnerable". It seems that most of the rest of the room opened a weak 2 or multi with that hand. It was a good lesson deal. I wouldn't have thought to re-open with a hand like that, but he said it was pretty automatic.

[FrancesHinden]

brianshark, on Aug 18 2008, 03:24 PM, said:

Then he turns to me and says something along the lines of "see... that's why this hand isn't a weak 2 vulnerable". It seems that most of the rest of the room opened a weak 2 or multi with that hand. It was a good lesson deal. I wouldn't have thought to re-open with a hand like that, but he said it was pretty automatic.

My team-mates didn't open a weak 2 on the hand either, but they didn't pre-empt the club pre-empt, they opened 1C so no chance of a penalty.