Einstein Letter on God His unvarnished opinion
#1
Posted 2008-May-18, 07:57
It would have been good then to know about the private opinions of respected thinkers like Einstein: Einstein Letter on God Sells for $404,000.
Genuine religious beliefs should be respected (and I think they generally are), but contrary beliefs should be encouraged also. For the sake of young folks, it's important (in my opinion) to highlight the opinions of prominent non-believers a bit more than when I was young.
The infliction of cruelty with a good conscience is a delight to moralists — that is why they invented hell. — Bertrand Russell
#2
Posted 2008-May-18, 08:14
#3
Posted 2008-May-18, 08:17
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What do you mean by genuine? Normally people think their belief is genuine whatever it is...
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Sounds nice but why would anyone want to do that?
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I agree, but do you think should the position of prominent believers be highlighted also? And how? Isn't the problem that religions claim some truth that you can believe in, and anything else is not the truth.
The whole problem is that schools should teach the different religions as options and not as truth, but that those who are teaching mostly think otherwise.
#4
Posted 2008-May-18, 08:20
#5
Posted 2008-May-18, 08:50
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I think that many people who profess to hold religious beliefs do so for social reasons, not because those beliefs are genuinely held. In many cases you can plainly see that people act in ways that would be out of the question if they genuinely believed what they profess.
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Where I live, the positions of prominent believers (or professed believers, I should say) get highlighted quite a bit as it is. I have no problem with that.
But letting young folks know that other respected thinkers see things differently will let them know that they don't need to profess a religion for social reasons.
The infliction of cruelty with a good conscience is a delight to moralists — that is why they invented hell. — Bertrand Russell
#6
Posted 2008-May-18, 09:03
PassedOut, on May 18 2008, 08:57 AM, said:
as a child you were mystified by adult thinking? and now as an adult you are mystified by thinking that is not the same as yours?
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where are those opinions not highlighted?
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exactly in what context is this not done? what of a religious nature is taught to young folks in school? put another way, is a young person taught a non-religious outlook or a religious outlook on life?
#7
Posted 2008-May-18, 09:22
luke warm, on May 18 2008, 10:03 AM, said:
No, as I grew older I came to understand how folks could accept religious beliefs, and I do respect that. And I understand how folks do get great comfort from religion.
I would hope that tax-supported schools stay away from advancing or denigrating any particular religious or irreligious belief.
The infliction of cruelty with a good conscience is a delight to moralists — that is why they invented hell. — Bertrand Russell
#8
Posted 2008-May-18, 09:53
PassedOut, on May 18 2008, 10:22 AM, said:
You're being rather condescending, aren't you?
Edit: It has been suggested to me that I have been condescending in the same way. And, I'm probably guilty.
#9
Posted 2008-May-18, 12:00
To say that many people find comfort in religion is true, and to say you understand this doesn't imply condescention, imo. It could equally well be neutral or even show a degree of wistfulness.
I'm not sure, given the emotional weight of religious beliefs, that teachers should be dealing with these questions..all too many schools are showing a truly awe-inspiring inablity to cope adequately with the tasks they have already. Perhaps a course in ethics would not be amiss, though. It seems to me that rather than dealing at all with religious questions as such in school, it would be more productive to teach good interpersonal and societal skills...which they should be doing already and usually are not. (Though some will undoubtedly challenge this, look at what is happening in schools today. Metal detectors over entrance doors. The term lockdown now applied to schools!!!)
I think that by and large now many of the problems come not from religion (not speaking of suicicde bombers etc here, but "normal" people in "normal" situations) is that kids, like others, have been left adrift without religion AND without anything to replace it with. Imo the fact that virtually all societies and cultures developed some form of religious belief speaks to a need most people have, and this is cannot be ignored without consequences. What to do about it is another question .
#10
Posted 2008-May-18, 12:14
anyhow...
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exactly in what context is this not done? what of a religious nature is taught to young folks in school? put another way, is a young person taught a non-religious outlook or a religious outlook on life?
I grew up in a very catholic country, one where I am pretty sure a large fraction of the population are either blind believers or believers for personal gain/social reasons.
Kids from a young age attend sunday school and church with their parents. they are repeatedly told that if they do not believe (or at least admit to believing) what is being said then they will go to hell. In this situation it doesn't matter if people at the secular school mention that there are other points of view, the lessons/bonds/fear mongered via the religious teaching are too strong.
the onus of teaching religious tolerance and the option of a personal choice in the matter lies mostly on the religious teachers and family, and less so on other social structure. of course the religious structures in place do not feel this way -- it is to their benefit to have as many believers as possible, and the reasons are simple -- wealth and power.
#11
Posted 2008-May-18, 12:17
onoway, on May 18 2008, 01:00 PM, said:
I agree.
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I think this idea is somewhat misplaced. I think ethics, or a system of values is something that needs to be taught at home. IMO by the time kids get to school it is already too late. I think part of the problem is that parents have started to rely on everybody else (i.e. nobody) to teach their children socially acceptable norms and behaviors. This obviously isn't working a lot of the time.
As an aside, I went through an educational system that had introduced, initially, an optional religion class in public schools. later it became mandatory for students to either attend that class or an ethics class (held at the same time). At least at my school the latter became a fiasco that i had observed first hand -- the ethics instructor was a catholic religious teacher who was given a syllabus that included philosophers he obviously had no idea about or totally didn't care for. He ended up comparing most of the topics to the scriptures and we felt as if this was some sort of clandestine attempt at converting us.
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I dunno. it seems to me this is more of a problem with an economic breakdown or lack of work. Idle hands (whether it be due to lack of opportunity to work, or an excess of money and the lack of need to work) seem (to me anyway) to lead to delinquency.
#12
Posted 2008-May-18, 13:54
TimG, on May 18 2008, 10:53 AM, said:
PassedOut, on May 18 2008, 10:22 AM, said:
You're being rather condescending, aren't you?
I did not mean to be. Jimmy asked a sincere question and I tried to give an honest answer.
onoway, on May 18 2008, 01:00 PM, said:
Yes, I have often marveled at folks' ability to have religious faith without evidence, but I simply lack that capacity (among many other lacks). For those able to do so given sufficient motivation, religion can surely provide a positive experience.
The infliction of cruelty with a good conscience is a delight to moralists — that is why they invented hell. — Bertrand Russell
#13
Posted 2008-May-18, 14:12
#14
Posted 2008-May-18, 14:31
One day my eldest came home and he had had a fight with some other boys who had stated that the baby Jesus was pure so that he didnt need diapers....my son responded that if he didnt ***** he would have exploded! As good a reason for a scuffle as any, I suppose.
#15
Posted 2008-May-18, 15:09
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Sounds like what opium does for some people - allows them to cope.
#16
Posted 2008-May-18, 17:37
passedout said:
they do... i was questioning your statement that children should be taught a more secular POV, and was trying to point out that in our schools that's the only kind that is taught... people who homeschool or send their kids to religious schools are free to do so... i was speaking of public education, though
ken said:
you can get one from God much cheaper, i think... iirc the gideons still give them away
#17
Posted 2008-May-18, 19:15
onoway, on May 18 2008, 02:00 PM, said:
Replace "religious beliefs" with "drinking" or "taking drugs" and you also have a true statement about many people.
One difference is that most parents don't intentionally indoctrinate their children into drinking or drug use. But they're taught to believe in religion even before they've decided that they can't cope with the real world.
#18
Posted 2008-May-18, 23:30
To suggest that someone who gains comfort from their faith after the death of a child, for example, and someone who crawls into the bottom of a bottle and stays there are both somehow operating on the same level is wrong, a cheap shot and insulting. They are both operating out of the same need, but there the resemblance ends. It's like saying there is no difference feeding an infant milk or sugar water ..both will assuage the hunger pangs for a while, but one cannot nourish. For those who have faith, their faith nourishes them.
I think it unfortunate that so many people who quite reasonably wish to have their rights to be agnostic or atheist respected think it's quite ok to show disdain for people who do have faith.
#19
Posted 2008-May-19, 00:04
onoway, on May 19 2008, 12:30 AM, said:
that might have its root in a few centuries of persecution of non-believers and branding them heretics, etc.
from my perspective, personal faith is fine, but anytime anyone tries to impose their belief on me in any way, i tend to react by attacking the foundations of their faith.
#20
Posted 2008-May-19, 06:46
The forward pressure must be counterbalanced by retarding and devolving forces....like religion. q.e.d.