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Einstein Letter on God His unvarnished opinion

#281 User is offline   Codo 

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Posted 2008-June-05, 00:47

barmar, on Jun 5 2008, 07:23 AM, said:

"keep the sabbath holy" (if you really interpret that as "have a nice day", you don't take your religion very seriously, so why are you debating so hard?).

.. you can have a very long discussion why it is mandatory for a community to have at least one day in a week where the majority has not to work. If you dislike my way of saying this, be my guest. If "keep the sabbath holy" does not make a nice day for you, okay, bad luck for you.

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I'm not saying that there aren't any good lessons to be learned from the Bible, like "turn the other cheek" or "let he who is without sin cast the first stone."  But what is it about this that requires you to believe in a supernatural being that you have to pray to, and a Hell that you'll be damned to if you don't?


Okay so we all agree that it is right to behave in this way and you believe that we shall do so because it is right, but there is no later justice about what you did. I do believe that it is right and there will be a "court" to judge about our living. Do any of us have any facts that on believe is right or wrong? No, so we can still believe.

I do believe that sometimes prayers help me. You don't. This is fine, too.

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Science has filled in all the large gaps in our understanding of nature, there's no need to resort to supernatural causes to explain how the Earth, Sun, animals, and man came to be.


Do you know how many modern times we had already? Do you know how many cultures believed that they nearly know everything? I find it ridicoulus to believe that "science has filled all the large gaps in our understanding". The knowledge of the world doubles all 10 years or so. This would be impossible if science had been so far as you think it is.
And we really don't know a lot about the stars and the beginning of live. We have very good theories, but they are still theories. We have quite a good understanding why people behave like they do, but they/we are still a miracle. We have cured millions of illnesses but there are millions left.
Sorry, but we really know nothing and I really believe that knowledge of the community in 3008 will be so superior to our knowledge, that they will look at us as a kind of barbarians.
Kind Regards

Roland


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#282 User is offline   Gerben42 

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Posted 2008-June-05, 01:26

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.. you can have a very long discussion why it is mandatory for a community to have at least one day in a week where the majority has not to work. If you dislike my way of saying this, be my guest. If "keep the sabbath holy" does not make a nice day for you, okay, bad luck for you.


Let me illustrate that. It is a good idea that we don't work 7 days a week, that would be horrible. What tilts me is that I cannot do the laundry on Sunday (no power in the laundry attic on a Sunday!). I will be approached by strangers or get dirty looks when I wash my car on a Sunday as well.

It's often the only day of the week where I can do such things. Because I work during the week and often play Bridge during the weekend, my most productive days catching up with cleaning, laundry etc. are Sundays and holidays. I like it that way. All I want is for the locals to accept this...
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#283 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2008-June-05, 10:48

Gerben42, on Jun 5 2008, 03:26 AM, said:

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.. you can have a very long discussion why it is mandatory for a community to have at least one day in a week where the majority has not to work. If you dislike my way of saying this, be my guest. If "keep the sabbath holy" does not make a nice day for you, okay, bad luck for you.


Let me illustrate that. It is a good idea that we don't work 7 days a week, that would be horrible. What tilts me is that I cannot do the laundry on Sunday (no power in the laundry attic on a Sunday!). I will be approached by strangers or get dirty looks when I wash my car on a Sunday as well.

It's often the only day of the week where I can do such things. Because I work during the week and often play Bridge during the weekend, my most productive days catching up with cleaning, laundry etc. are Sundays and holidays. I like it that way. All I want is for the locals to accept this...

Right. There's a big difference between having a day off from work, and keeping that day "holy". Most people in the US get two days off from work, usually Saturday and Sunday, but only one of them is holy (Saturday for Jews, Sunday for Christians -- sorry Muslims). The weekend is a secular outgrowth of the religious sabbath.

#284 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2008-June-05, 11:01

Codo, on Jun 5 2008, 02:47 AM, said:

barmar, on Jun 5 2008, 07:23 AM, said:


Science has filled in all the large gaps in our understanding of nature, there's no need to resort to supernatural causes to explain how the Earth, Sun, animals, and man came to be.


Do you know how many modern times we had already? Do you know how many cultures believed that they nearly know everything? I find it ridicoulus to believe that "science has filled all the large gaps in our understanding". The knowledge of the world doubles all 10 years or so. This would be impossible if science had been so far as you think it is.
And we really don't know a lot about the stars and the beginning of live. We have very good theories, but they are still theories. We have quite a good understanding why people behave like they do, but they/we are still a miracle. We have cured millions of illnesses but there are millions left.
Sorry, but we really know nothing and I really believe that knowledge of the community in 3008 will be so superior to our knowledge, that they will look at us as a kind of barbarians.

I've never said that we have all the answers, but we keep filling in the gaps with science. Religion does it by simply making stuff up and telling everyone they should believe it. What's wrong with just saying "we don't know yet?" Why do you have to pretend that you have answers?

But I did mean it when I said that science has filled in the LARGE gaps. There are still some details missing, and scientists have plenty of work to do, but for the most part we know how the universe works. It's true, however, that some discoveries in the past decade or so have raised some big questions in cosmology (dark matter, dark energy). I have confidence that scientists will figure out most of the answers, like they always have in the past, so there's no need to presume a supernatural explanation.

When science does learn something new, it practically never matches the Biblical explanation. No miraculous Creation by a deity in 6 days, about 6,000 years ag, a Big Bang due to quantum mechanical forces about 14 billion years ago. Plants and animals were not created all at once and unchanging, they evolved from simple forms over millions of years due to natural selection. The earth travels around the sun, not the other way around. The list goes on and on.

How can you have any confidence in a religion that has been shown to make incorrect claims about such important things?

#285 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2008-June-05, 13:35

How can I have any confidence in a religion that believed that space is filled with an unknowable, unmeasurable Æther that light propagated in? Or that there was no porous thick platinum oxide that can be generated by long-term heavy static electrochemical pressure or less long-term cyclical pressure? Or that nuclear power couldn't exist, because the atom was indivisble and unchanging?

It sure looks like every time science learns something new, it frequently doesn't match the Scientific explanation - those three examples are less than 100 years old.

OTOH, I'm not a Bible literalist; Genesis 1 is a useful myth that can still teach us things that science doesn't seem to be able to (like, dominion over the plants and animals also means responsibilty for same plants and animals), and frankly is more "true", for values of truth including "higher probability of survival in 2000BCE Sinai" than modern science. That means, to me, that "you don't get to pick and choose what is to be taken literally" (with possibly the Red Letters, in particular, the Great Commandment, as an exception) applies to both the literalists and the Bible-bashers.

Although the ones that really burn my butt are the ones who declaim "it is True because Science Says So" - see Para. 1 for my response to that - that is Science as a Religion, and those people have forgotten what Science is (hint: look up falsifiable as it applies to the Scientific Method. Then prove the logical truth of ~(A ^ B) ). Oh, and the ID nutters - it is a plausible theory, it even May Be True (1); but because it is unfalsifiable (funny, that same word again. Maybe it's important?), it Is Not Science.

Michael.

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#286 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2008-June-05, 14:57

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It sure looks like every time science learns something new, it frequently doesn't match the Scientific explanation - those three examples are less than 100 years old.


Compare this with the bible... I acknowledge that different believers have expanded the range of interpretations of the literature, but where are the new gospels, the new passages, the supplements reflecting new wisdom?

Those who rant about those who elevate science to a religion are, imo, confusing 'scientific knowledge' with 'scientific method'. The former represents the current understanding of matters arising from the application, to date, of the latter.

There are always going to be humans who cling to the status quo, who cling to paradigms long after they have been shifted. But that is a fault of the human, not of the method. Unlike religion, the scientific method carries within itself the need to constantly re-examine current understanding, and to accept that as our knowledge expands, our theories must be adjusted accordingly. It is impossible to truly apply the scientific method and, at the same time, cling to beliefs that have been shown to be false.

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OTOH, I'm not a Bible literalist; Genesis 1 is a useful myth that can still teach us things that science doesn't seem to be able to (like, dominion over the plants and animals also means responsibilty for same plants and animals), and frankly is more "true", for values of truth including "higher probability of survival in 2000BCE Sinai" than modern science.


This is nonsense: sorry, Michael, I usually agree with much of what you post, but this is silly.

The bible commands us to go forth and multiply. The RC church prohibits most forms of birth control. The bible enjoins us to exercise mastery over all other animals.

We have done this to the point where humans have exterminated thousands of species, and more are disappearing every year. We can date our success as exterminators back at least 12,000 years.

We are now, it seems, changing the climate of the planet, to the point that we are threatening even more species. We may be about to induce a mass reduction in the human population over the next 100-150 years as desertification spreads, and we kill off most of the fish in the oceans.. if not through over-fishing, then by destruction of the temperature- and salinity- dependent plankton populations.

Yes, I know that it can be argued that our 'success' has been due to science.

Well, tell that to the mega-fauna of the Americas in 12,000 BC when humans first spread across the continents.

More importantly, the reason technology was used to almost exterminate the bison and to kill all the passenger pigeons, amongst other matters, was the attitude of society.

Scientists are people: they live and breathe the cultural values of their society. Through virtually all of history, those values have been based on religious teachings.

It was not the scientific method that has brought the earth to its current state, it was the use to which technology was put.. and that use was driven by the values of the society at large.

All used to be taught, and many still believe, that there is some fundamental difference between humans and 'animals'. The last pope criticized Italians for spending money on their pet dogs, which, he pointed out did not have souls.

I suspect that many pet owners would reject the idea that their dog has no soul while they do. But the point is that this type of attitude, based on the belief that we are created in god's image (and the other animals are not) allows people to ignore the welfare of other players in the ecology (a term of science, not religion, btw).

The atheist realizes that we are part of the fabric of life on this planet, and that while evolution has provided us with certain advantages over other animals, we are nevertheless fundamentally the same type of life. We can see that we cannot depend on some supernatural divine being to intercede to bail us out of any mess we may create. We can implement birth control without fearing going to hell. We can recognize that hurricanes will become more powerful and more frequent as the planet warms, without being tempted to blame the victims for having incurred god's wrath.

As for survival skills, you have to be kidding! Give Moses a set of Encylopedia Brittanicas from the mid 1950's and the ability to read and understand them, and make sure that sufficient of his tribespeople share those abilities and are prepared to use the knowledge, and it would have been a Jewish Empire, not a Roman empire at the time of Jesus' birth!

Metallurgy would have led to more powerful weapons. Medicine would have reduced infant mortality and increased adult life expectancy. Agriculture would have led to improved crop yields, and improved animal husbandry. And so on.

And the information of value from the encylopedias would have been generated by the scientific method: the encylopedia wouldn't have given them a single new and powerful prayer.
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#287 User is offline   Codo 

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Posted 2008-June-09, 05:42

Sorry Mike,

I often agree with you, but here some false statements.

You cannot give the responsibility for the crimes against nature to the religions.
If you want the mastery about the animals you simply should not kill them. You cannot be the master of a dead bison f.e. So this crimes had been done with the help of the science and contrary to what the bible told us in the quote you gave.

If the pope says that there is too much money, time and effort spend on our pets while their are still people starving in a rich country like Italy, then he has a point. It is our responsibility what we do with our goods. We all (Me surely included) like to spend most of our money for ourselves, accepting that it would be helpful to give more to the poor on this planet. we "all" handle it this way. But that does not make this way the right way.
And if someone tells us that it is wrong to give so much to the loved pets and so few to the starving, he surely has a point.

I needed a long time to understand the concept against birth control from the catholics. I still don`t share their view, but it is shortsided to condem it.

As a starter: Who can define the beginning of life? Can you? I cannot. So when is it okay to kill some cells and when does it start to be murder? Sorry, I don`t want to be the judge about this point.
Kind Regards

Roland


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#288 User is online   hrothgar 

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Posted 2008-June-09, 05:48

luke warm, on Jun 5 2008, 02:39 AM, said:

the late greg bahnsen had many very famous debates, you can probably find a few either in print or on youtube, you be the judge...

The late Greg Bahnsen was a well known Christian Reconstructionist

(You know, the folks who are in favor of imposing the death penalty for blasphemy...)

I'd be careful hitching my wagon to that set of horses...
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#289 User is offline   luke warm 

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Posted 2008-June-09, 11:05

i've never heard or read any of his works where he advocated anything like that... in any case, i was speaking of his debate ability... i believe some of what he believed (for example, postmillennialism), and i don't think some of what he believed is scriptural (for example, a focus on a mixture of works, to whatever degree, and faith for salvation)
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