[PassedOut]

Growing up, it always mystified me that so many adults seemed to accept claims about god and religion that looked dubious at best. But I quickly learned that asking pointed questions in that area raised highly emotional responses.

It would have been good then to know about the private opinions of respected thinkers like Einstein: Einstein Letter on God Sells for $404,000.

Genuine religious beliefs should be respected (and I think they generally are), but contrary beliefs should be encouraged also. For the sake of young folks, it's important (in my opinion) to highlight the opinions of prominent non-believers a bit more than when I was young.

[Winstonm]

There is no money or power in Einstein's beliefs - hence, no distribution of those ideas.

[Gerben42]

Quote

Genuine religious beliefs should be respected (and I think they generally are),

What do you mean by genuine? Normally people think their belief is genuine whatever it is...

Quote

but contrary beliefs should be encouraged also

Sounds nice but why would anyone want to do that?

Quote

For the sake of young folks, it's important (in my opinion) to highlight the opinions of prominent non-believers a bit more than when I was young.

I agree, but do you think should the position of prominent believers be highlighted also? And how? Isn't the problem that religions claim some truth that you can believe in, and anything else is not the truth.

The whole problem is that schools should teach the different religions as options and not as truth, but that those who are teaching mostly think otherwise.

[helene_t]

I agree with the quote “The most incomprehensible thing about the universe is its comprehensibility”

[PassedOut]

Quote

What do you mean by genuine? Normally people think their belief is genuine whatever it is...

I think that many people who profess to hold religious beliefs do so for social reasons, not because those beliefs are genuinely held. In many cases you can plainly see that people act in ways that would be out of the question if they genuinely believed what they profess.

Quote

I agree, but do you think should the position of prominent believers be highlighted also? And how? Isn't the problem that religions claim some truth that you can believe in, and anything else is not the truth.

Where I live, the positions of prominent believers (or professed believers, I should say) get highlighted quite a bit as it is. I have no problem with that.

But letting young folks know that other respected thinkers see things differently will let them know that they don't need to profess a religion for social reasons.

[luke warm]

PassedOut, on May 18 2008, 08:57 AM, said:

Growing up, it always mystified me that so many adults seemed to accept claims about god and religion that looked dubious at best. But I quickly learned that asking pointed questions in that area raised highly emotional responses.

as a child you were mystified by adult thinking? and now as an adult you are mystified by thinking that is not the same as yours?

Quote

Genuine religious beliefs should be respected (and I think they generally are), but contrary beliefs should be encouraged also. For the sake of young folks, it's important (in my opinion) to highlight the opinions of prominent non-believers a bit more than when I was young.

where are those opinions not highlighted?

Quote

But letting young folks know that other respected thinkers see things differently will let them know that they don't need to profess a religion for social reasons.

exactly in what context is this not done? what of a religious nature is taught to young folks in school? put another way, is a young person taught a non-religious outlook or a religious outlook on life?

[PassedOut]

luke warm, on May 18 2008, 10:03 AM, said:

and now as an adult you are mystified by thinking that is not the same as yours?

No, as I grew older I came to understand how folks could accept religious beliefs, and I do respect that. And I understand how folks do get great comfort from religion.

I would hope that tax-supported schools stay away from advancing or denigrating any particular religious or irreligious belief.

[TimG]

PassedOut, on May 18 2008, 10:22 AM, said:

No, as I grew older I came to understand how folks could accept religious beliefs, and I do respect that. And I understand how folks do get great comfort from religion.

You're being rather condescending, aren't you?

Edit: It has been suggested to me that I have been condescending in the same way. And, I'm probably guilty.

[onoway]

Sometimes the world can be a hard place and if religious beliefs don't help solve the problems they can for some people at least allow them to cope. For some, it might not do to look too closely at the belief systems as if they are found through concentrated analysis to be unsatisfactory then there is no support left, and it seems many many people find that a daunting prospect. I'm not sure that most people are able to find satisfaction in the thought of being totally responsible for themselves and their lives, and that their life has no more meaning or significance (except to them) than that of a chicken or clump of dandelions.

To say that many people find comfort in religion is true, and to say you understand this doesn't imply condescention, imo. It could equally well be neutral or even show a degree of wistfulness.

I'm not sure, given the emotional weight of religious beliefs, that teachers should be dealing with these questions..all too many schools are showing a truly awe-inspiring inablity to cope adequately with the tasks they have already. Perhaps a course in ethics would not be amiss, though. It seems to me that rather than dealing at all with religious questions as such in school, it would be more productive to teach good interpersonal and societal skills...which they should be doing already and usually are not. (Though some will undoubtedly challenge this, look at what is happening in schools today. Metal detectors over entrance doors. The term lockdown now applied to schools!!!)

I think that by and large now many of the problems come not from religion (not speaking of suicicde bombers etc here, but "normal" people in "normal" situations) is that kids, like others, have been left adrift without religion AND without anything to replace it with. Imo the fact that virtually all societies and cultures developed some form of religious belief speaks to a need most people have, and this is cannot be ignored without consequences. What to do about it is another question .

[matmat]

I was hoping for a translation or at least a legible transcript

anyhow...

Quote

Quote

But letting young folks know that other respected thinkers see things differently will let them know that they don't need to profess a religion for social reasons.

exactly in what context is this not done? what of a religious nature is taught to young folks in school? put another way, is a young person taught a non-religious outlook or a religious outlook on life?

I grew up in a very catholic country, one where I am pretty sure a large fraction of the population are either blind believers or believers for personal gain/social reasons.

Kids from a young age attend sunday school and church with their parents. they are repeatedly told that if they do not believe (or at least admit to believing) what is being said then they will go to hell. In this situation it doesn't matter if people at the secular school mention that there are other points of view, the lessons/bonds/fear mongered via the religious teaching are too strong.
the onus of teaching religious tolerance and the option of a personal choice in the matter lies mostly on the religious teachers and family, and less so on other social structure. of course the religious structures in place do not feel this way -- it is to their benefit to have as many believers as possible, and the reasons are simple -- wealth and power.

[matmat]

onoway, on May 18 2008, 01:00 PM, said:

To say that many people find comfort in religion is true, and to say you understand this  doesn't imply condescention, imo. It could equally well be neutral or even show a degree of wistfulness.

I agree.

Quote

Perhaps a course in ethics would not be amiss, though.

I think this idea is somewhat misplaced. I think ethics, or a system of values is something that needs to be taught at home. IMO by the time kids get to school it is already too late. I think part of the problem is that parents have started to rely on everybody else (i.e. nobody) to teach their children socially acceptable norms and behaviors. This obviously isn't working a lot of the time.

As an aside, I went through an educational system that had introduced, initially, an optional religion class in public schools. later it became mandatory for students to either attend that class or an ethics class (held at the same time). At least at my school the latter became a fiasco that i had observed first hand -- the ethics instructor was a catholic religious teacher who was given a syllabus that included philosophers he obviously had no idea about or totally didn't care for. He ended up comparing most of the topics to the scriptures and we felt as if this was some sort of clandestine attempt at converting us.

Quote

I think that by and large now many of the problems come not from religion (not speaking of suicicde bombers etc here, but  "normal" people in  "normal" situations) is that kids, like others, have been left adrift without religion  AND without anything to replace it with. Imo the fact that virtually all societies and cultures developed some form of religious belief speaks to a need most people have, and this is cannot be ignored without consequences. What to do about it is another question .

I dunno. it seems to me this is more of a problem with an economic breakdown or lack of work. Idle hands (whether it be due to lack of opportunity to work, or an excess of money and the lack of need to work) seem (to me anyway) to lead to delinquency.

[PassedOut]

TimG, on May 18 2008, 10:53 AM, said:

PassedOut, on May 18 2008, 10:22 AM, said:

No, as I grew older I came to understand how folks could accept religious beliefs, and I do respect that. And I understand how folks do get great comfort from religion.

You're being rather condescending, aren't you?

I did not mean to be. Jimmy asked a sincere question and I tried to give an honest answer.

onoway, on May 18 2008, 01:00 PM, said:

To say that many people find comfort in religion is true, and to say you understand this doesn't imply condescention, imo. It could equally well be neutral or even show a degree of wistfulness.

Yes, I have often marveled at folks' ability to have religious faith without evidence, but I simply lack that capacity (among many other lacks). For those able to do so given sufficient motivation, religion can surely provide a positive experience.

[kenberg]

Whatever I may feel about the human capacity for faith, what really astonishes me is that someone would pay 400K for a letter about God. Maybe a letter from God...

[Al_U_Card]

My kids went to an "immersion" school. Start kindergarden all french and add one english subject per year. They came out of elementary school bilingual. They also came out ostracized and scarred from their "ethics" class option. The majority in the french catholic school had religious instruction and catechism and confirmations etc. Their "ethics" classes (they were the only participants) were held on a chair in the hall with a book....tolerance my ass!

One day my eldest came home and he had had a fight with some other boys who had stated that the baby Jesus was pure so that he didnt need diapers....my son responded that if he didnt ***** he would have exploded! As good a reason for a scuffle as any, I suppose.

[Winstonm]

Quote

Sometimes the world can be a hard place and if religious beliefs don't help solve the problems they can for some people at least allow them to cope.

Sounds like what opium does for some people - allows them to cope.

[luke warm]

karl marx already made that observation, winston

passedout said:

I would hope that tax-supported schools stay away from advancing or denigrating any particular religious or irreligious belief.

they do... i was questioning your statement that children should be taught a more secular POV, and was trying to point out that in our schools that's the only kind that is taught... people who homeschool or send their kids to religious schools are free to do so... i was speaking of public education, though

ken said:

Whatever I may feel about the human capacity for faith, what really astonishes me is that someone would pay 400K for a letter about God. Maybe a letter from God...

you can get one from God much cheaper, i think... iirc the gideons still give them away

[barmar]

onoway, on May 18 2008, 02:00 PM, said:

Sometimes the world can be a hard place and if religious beliefs don't help solve the problems they can for some people at least allow them to cope.

Replace "religious beliefs" with "drinking" or "taking drugs" and you also have a true statement about many people.

One difference is that most parents don't intentionally indoctrinate their children into drinking or drug use. But they're taught to believe in religion even before they've decided that they can't cope with the real world.

[onoway]

It depends on your definition of the word "cope". To me, it means being able to continue to function in a socially acceptable way even when you really don't feel capable of doing so. To my understanding both drug addiction and extreme alcoholism do exactly the reverse, making it virtually impossible over the long term to continue to handle your responsibilities adequately.

To suggest that someone who gains comfort from their faith after the death of a child, for example, and someone who crawls into the bottom of a bottle and stays there are both somehow operating on the same level is wrong, a cheap shot and insulting. They are both operating out of the same need, but there the resemblance ends. It's like saying there is no difference feeding an infant milk or sugar water ..both will assuage the hunger pangs for a while, but one cannot nourish. For those who have faith, their faith nourishes them.

I think it unfortunate that so many people who quite reasonably wish to have their rights to be agnostic or atheist respected think it's quite ok to show disdain for people who do have faith.

[matmat]

onoway, on May 19 2008, 12:30 AM, said:

I think it unfortunate that so many people who quite reasonably wish to have their rights to be agnostic or atheist respected think it's quite ok to show disdain for people who do have faith.

that might have its root in a few centuries of persecution of non-believers and branding them heretics, etc.

from my perspective, personal faith is fine, but anytime anyone tries to impose their belief on me in any way, i tend to react by attacking the foundations of their faith.

[Al_U_Card]

Fundamentally (not in the religious sense ) we are physically and consciously evolving. The universe has a principle that requires that equilibrium be maintained (A question of balance, for the Moody Blues fans in here, lol).

The forward pressure must be counterbalanced by retarding and devolving forces....like religion. q.e.d.