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Disclosure question ACBL, if it matters

Poll: Disclosure question (3 member(s) have cast votes)

If presented with the Pre-Alert card below, would you be comfortable you understand?

  1. Yes, sufficient to start (2 votes [66.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 66.67%

  2. No, still totally unclear (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  3. Close, but I have questions (please detail in response) (1 votes [33.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 33.33%

  4. Other (like "what form of blackwood", if I don't ask, it will come up!) (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

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#1 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2025-July-31, 10:00

So, I've finally (after over a decade!) been able to get this one pair to explain to me, in a way I can understand, how their system works.

For all this time, they've been gleefully telling people that 1 is "11-19, any hand". Which I knew was unadulterated, but I couldn't get them to clarify. And clearly (especially when they played in flight B, but even in the open), it was to their advantage to "not understand the question"/"not be able to clarify".

Had they been a pair in contention (or had they continued to play in flight B, or often enough that we could remember and go after it) we probably would have been more forceful about it, but well, no.

But now, the one that I truly believe *doesn't* want to gain from "we know what we mean, we're hoping you don't" has convinced another player to play this, and that player has taught it to *his* student. So, yeah, not happy with continued "inability to explain".

So now they've managed to explain it in such a way that I could give them hands to clarify the holes I still saw, and I think we have an answer. So what I'm asking here is "does this make sense to you" (having never seen it before) - basically "do we have the disclosure clear now, to someone who hasn't been fighting with it for years?"

Note: parentheticals aren't "on the chart", just clarification questions I have asked already.

  • 1 and 1 are opened on 11-17 and 5+ of the major. (I have checked, and that includes 5M-6 or 7m).
  • 1NT is 15-17 balanced.
  • 1 is opened on any 11-17 that doesn't meet the above, and 18-19 any. (Yes, with 11 high, 9 diamonds and a club void, they will open 1). Forcing 1 round.
  • 1 is 20-21 any hand. (unbalanced, I think? I don't remember their 2NT opener) Obviously, Forcing.
  • 2 is 22+ as in standard, 2/1.


ACBL requirements: Pre-Alert 1 and 1, and explain. Probably best to explain 1 as "catchall, denies...", which is why it is presented in the above order. Alert at the time, as the bids are forcing, not just "could be zero" (but that should be in the Alert explanation). They've written up a sheet, which has my list above, in that order; I think that meets the requirements. Do you?
Long live the Republic-k. -- Major General J. Golding Frederick (tSCoSI)
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#2 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2025-July-31, 11:56

Step one ban the system since they cannot explain it. Next problem...

If and when they can correctly verbally explain it go to step two.

Fill out the Cc correctly, if not, ban it.
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#3 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2025-July-31, 12:46

That's the question. Have they?
Long live the Republic-k. -- Major General J. Golding Frederick (tSCoSI)
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#4 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2025-July-31, 13:53

View Postmycroft, on 2025-July-31, 12:46, said:

That's the question. Have they?

Playing in flight B or Open, they are not "bunny bashing".
I'm happy that they have defined and documented their system, and will disclose it fully.
I will hold them to a high standard, their disclosure and table conduct must to be impeccable.

Yeah, more work for the TD but we have to encourage creativity or the game is dead.
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. MikeH
"100% certain that many excellent players would disagree. This is far more about style/judgment than right vs. wrong." Fred
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#5 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2025-July-31, 13:55

View Postmike777, on 2025-July-31, 11:56, said:

Step one ban the system since they cannot explain it. Next problem...

If and when they can correctly verbally explain it go to step two.

Fill out the Cc correctly, if not, ban it.

You've just lost most players here
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. MikeH
"100% certain that many excellent players would disagree. This is far more about style/judgment than right vs. wrong." Fred
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#6 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2025-July-31, 14:35

I'm actually ok with the 11-19 label on 1c bids, but I would add in the pre-alert for 1d bids as well. The reason to pre-alert is to give the opponents the opportunity to discuss defenses to your actions.
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#7 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2025-July-31, 16:06

So, one more thing I learned (and I'm happy for it, and frankly I think so will the players be). This is no longer Flight B legal (unless Flight B is 3001 MPs - here, the break is 1600). Neither of the minor calls are legal Basic+.

I will let them know.

Pre-Alerts in the ACBL:
  • A 1-level Opening Bid that is not Natural or is Forcing.
  • A canapé system.
  • [Two-system methods. Details on what that means elided here]

So yeah, they know that both 1 and 1 are required Pre-Alerts, and explicity *because* the opponents are entitled to work out a defence.

(in case anyone wondered why I was so quick to suggest my defence to the Minor Suit Forcing system posted earlier, maybe you're now au fait with the situation?)
Long live the Republic-k. -- Major General J. Golding Frederick (tSCoSI)
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#8 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted Yesterday, 07:03

"any shape" doesn't mean "all shapes". This is often used in the description for the catch-all bid for hands that don't have a more specific bid.

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