[mikl_plkcc]

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Partner thought that I had 10 points because I made a free bid at the 3-level, but I thought that the bid was just purely competitive and requested partner to choose 3♦ or 3♠, because there were two opening hands and two responding hands so the high card points were spread evenly, and they had a great ♥ fit that their 2♥ was definitely making, and my 5-5 2-suiter strongly indicated that we had a fit as well.

What do you normally expect for the 3♦ bid here?

[mike777]

Yes 3D shows extras
Why?

Partner passed over 2h limits their hand.
Partner did not make a support double, so denies 3 spades
With a competitive hand you can
Double or bid good/bad 2NT

[mw64ahw]

I play fast arrival as a distributional Pass/Correct and would X or cue-bid with extras. However, with a pick-up partner I'd treat 3♦ as forcing.

[helene_t]

If you play Walsh (but maybe Walsh should not apply after their double?), then 3di is just to play.

If you don't play Walsh then a weak 3di bid is maybe not so practical, as we should sometimes play 2sp. This is especially the case If you don't play support doubles so p could have three spades.

So if not playing Walsh, I think 3di should be about 11 points. A stronger or weaker hand can double. Stronger hands can also bid 3he. Weaker and stronger hands can also bid g/b 2nt If you play that.

[mikl_plkcc]

 mw64ahw, on 2025-March-08, 00:15, said:

I play fast arrival as a distributional Pass/Correct and would X or cue-bid with extras. However, with a pick-up partner I'd treat 3♦ as forcing.

This was I intended. Our system notes contain a statement that "a new suit by an unpassed partner is forcing, unless the other partner has narrowly limited his hand". An example of the previous sentence is that, we play that a new suit after a preempt as non-forcing because a preempt is a picture bid. I suppose that the pass by the partner has limited his hand so my bid should no longer be forcing.

 helene_t, on 2025-March-08, 03:08, said:

If you play Walsh (but maybe Walsh should not apply after their double?), then 3di is just to play.

If you don't play Walsh then a weak 3di bid is maybe not so practical, as we should sometimes play 2sp. This is especially the case If you don't play support doubles so p could have three spades.

So if not playing Walsh, I think 3di should be about 11 points. A stronger or weaker hand can double. Stronger hands can also bid 3he. Weaker and stronger hands can also bid g/b 2nt If you play that.

I don't play Walsh. I have no idea what a support double is, it's too confusing. Our agreements on double is only takeout or penalty (unless in a conventional sequence), and all doubles, other than penalty doubles, are "takeout" in a sense that requests partner to choose a suit. So a double denies the ability to bid any other suits (I would need to think about what it meant, if it effectively meant partner had 3 ♠). I also could not bid 2♠ because it would guarantee 6.

[mikl_plkcc]

If North made a double at the second round, our agreement would be a takeout (negative) double, which would mean:

No 4 ♠ (otherwise he would have supported)
4 ♦ (4 cards in the unbid minor if both majors are bid)
No 6 ♣, or possibly 5 very good ♣, (otherwise he would have rebid 3♣
And extremely likely short in ♥ (so he had an urge to bid)

So the most likely distribution I would infer if my partner doubled would be 3=2=4=4, as he would not be able to reverse into 3♦, other possibilities include 3=1=4=5, 2=2=4=5 but unlikely anything else since with 5 ♦ the opening is 1♦.

[Zelandakh]

3♦ direct - extras. Double followed by 3♦ if partner continues 3♣ - competitive. Double followed by 3♥ - GF. There is some relevance as to what Opener's Pass shows (particularly w.r.t. the opening NT range) in how Responder should continue here.

[apollo1201]

What would you bid with Axxx x KJTxxx xx? When most likely partner has some kind of weak NT hand (I suppose you play strong NT). If you did not bid 1D first with this collection. But it would be even truer with C and D reversed, partner opening 1D.

The fact that the auction got competitive should create new rules. Having X and a cue bid for strong-ish hands, 3D needs to be competitive.

And it also should deny 5S with whom you might X with sufficient strength, or maybe rebid them with less provided they are good. The fact that partner did not X 2H should not deny 3S, do you really want to force partner to bid again with their 8-count (and sometimes less) and table dummy with Jxx KJxx Axx Kxx, while the Xer could have 4S? To be safe, X by opener should show extras, 5431 with good honors or maybe 5332 with small doubleton in their suit and close to 1NT opening.

This shows that part of the answer depends on some conventions or styles you might play or not. But with 2 forcing calls available, natural balances should be to play.

[mike777]

 apollo1201, on 2025-March-10, 15:53, said:

What would you bid with Axxx x KJTxxx xx? When most likely partner has some kind of weak NT hand (I suppose you play strong NT). If you did not bid 1D first with this collection. But it would be even truer with C and D reversed, partner opening 1D.

The fact that the auction got competitive should create new rules. Having X and a cue bid for strong-ish hands, 3D needs to be competitive.

And it also should deny 5S with whom you might X with sufficient strength, or maybe rebid them with less provided they are good. The fact that partner did not X 2H should not deny 3S, do you really want to force partner to bid again with their 8-count (and sometimes less) and table dummy with Jxx KJxx Axx Kxx, while the Xer could have 4S? To be safe, X by opener should show extras, 5431 with good honors or maybe 5332 with small doubleton in their suit and close to 1NT opening.

This shows that part of the answer depends on some conventions or styles you might play or not. But with 2 forcing calls available, natural balances should be to play.

This is why Marty Bergen has discussed and written about G/B 2NT, a version of Leb for thirty or fourty years.
Nothing new ..
So I disagree with that half of your post.
I also disagree with your support doubles comments

If you are playing 2/1 system, use the competitive tools designed for it

If you are playing another system, fair enough..use the tools designed for it
_--++++++---------

With the USA spring National tournament starting Wednesday on vugraph
Excellent chance to watch the top players and see what competitive bidding methods they use at the table.

I am curious to see what they use.

[smerriman]

apollo1201, on 2025-March-10, 15:53, said:

do you really want to force partner to bid again with their 8-count (and sometimes less) and table dummy with Jxx KJxx Axx Kxx, while the Xer could have 4S?

Yes. As a better player than me wrote:

Quote

Any time I can buy the contract at the 2-level in a competitive auction, I'm happy. Even if it is a 7-card fit. Sometimes the opponents have an 8+ card fit, in which case I have done very well ala LOTT. Even if nobody has an 8-card fit, I'm probably okay. Most of the time somebody can take 8 tricks, and that is all I need to be right. And even if I'm wrong and neither side can take 8 tricks, the opponents don't always get it right -- often they will take the push and then I'm very happy. As for getting doubled at the 2-level when an opponent has stuck in an overcall -- it just doesn't happen.

[mikl_plkcc]

With 4=1=6=2 I would have responded 1♦ at the first round, and if the auction went (1♥) - pass - (pass) to me, I would double to force partner to choose a suit, as partner was unlikely to have 4 ♠ because he didn't rebid 1♠.