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Anything to see here ? (F2F)

#21 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2023-August-24, 11:09

sanst:

OP said:

3♦ was intended as a good heart raise on ♠J10x, ♥ Q10x, ♦Kxx ♣AJ97 not alerted, they'd agreed bidding opener's suit was a raise

East did not "improvise" a raise, they thought this was a raise (at least from the OP's perspective. Usually we assume the information in OP as read/determined. Here, of course, with it being the opponents, the director should ask and find that out, and not assume. But I've seen it before, and would believe it.)

Absolutely, if East decided to bid 3 because it was a "general force" (which is no less sensible than "cuebid"ing as a raise), then the chance that passing rather than showing the hearts is less likely. We'll see the poll.

But as far as UI is concerned, it doesn't matter what their agreement is (for a potential MI ruling, of course, it does). If East expected an Alert, and didn't get one, even if that woke her up to their agreement (general force, natural, whatever), that is still UI to her, and the UI still is "partner doesn't know I have hearts" (in this case, "because I didn't show them" rather than "because partner's forgot the system", but still).

Re: Gilithin, yes, that's the argument. However, the "let's say" numbers are the/a problem. The relevant leg of the UI ruling:

Quote

...[T]hat is demonstrably suggested over another by unauthorized information if the other call or play is a logical alternative.

"Demonstrably suggested" is the issue here. All Gilithin's numbers should be doing are demonstrating that 4 is suggested by the UI over pass. And I agree, if 3 "was intended as" a heart raise, and it wasn't Alerted (and should have been), there was UI and that UI makes "make clear you have support, partner doesn't think there's a choice of games" suggested over passing a "choice of games" 3NT. But by using the numbers he is using, he is begging the question of Logical Alternative. Clearly, "40% would pass" meets the "significant proportion...would consider, and some might select"(L16B1b) Equally "demonstrably", we could use "10% pass/90% bid" and "3% pass/97% bid" - but now it's much less likely that by throwing numbers out like that, we meet the "significant proportion" criterion.

I am not assuming that is his intent, but it is something to be careful about, because it happens A Lot.

I've been carefully avoiding "do I think that pass is a LA with this specific hand?" in this discussion. First, that's up to the poll; second, the discussion of how we would rule is more interesting than is "is passing a LA with 23-27 HCP and a 3334 with effectively perfect spade help?" Especially because we don't have information about whether E-W agreement on "bidding over preempts" looks more like OP's (in which case you are definitely wondering about 23 to..." or mine (where you would have to rephrase the question "...with 26-28 HCP and..."). And that is an interesting question - my case looks like the traditional "extras and flat, likely to make the same tricks and get the extra 10 points at matchpoints", and OP's looks like "minimum values, wasted values in spades, it's possible we make the same number of tricks in NT and that number is 9". Without knowing what hands will not be preempted in this partnership, we can't even work out what would be a good pass.
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#22 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2023-August-24, 12:56

 mycroft, on 2023-August-24, 11:09, said:

Re: Gilithin, yes, that's the argument.


From my first post in this thread:

 Gilithin, on 2023-August-20, 08:24, said:

If 3NT is choice of game, then judgement (or polling) is required to decide if Pass is a LA.


The numbers were given for illustrative purposes to aid sanst in seeing how the UI suggests 4 over Pass and why this might be an issue.
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#23 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2023-August-24, 13:42

I understand, and thanks for clarifying. I'm just saying you have to be careful about the numbers - a different set would give the same "demonstrably suggested" without so strongly implying "and it's a logical alternative".

I'm not aiming that at you, really - this happens *a lot*. In fact, the number of times I have seen (even thought, before being shown "don't bias this" myself) "yeah, X is obviously suggested over Y, X was taken, rule Y" without inspecting "would anybody really do Y?" is legion. Using the numbers you used absolutely will induce that lack of inspection in others, even if it isn't a sign of whether you have done it yourself.

As I said: "I am not assuming that is his intent, but it is something to be careful about, because it happens A Lot."
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#24 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2023-August-25, 02:36

Unless I missed it, we still owe a reply to this question:

 Cyberyeti, on 2023-August-20, 03:56, said:



General question if they make a horrible non trump related mistake in 4 (getting trapped in the wrong hand so they can't take a finesse), are they assumed to make the same mistake in NT if you adjust it back there ?


I know several Directors who would just say yes, but I'm not assuming repetition of an error unless the situation really is identical or it's normal for their level of play. Curious to hear what others think.
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#25 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2023-August-31, 12:57

I'm not sure I could put up a specific case for this, as "going down" == "no damage". Unless the same blockage would have set 3NT 2, for instance. I don't think I count that as damage: "their bad play (unrelated to the infraction) would have caused them to go down *even more* in the contract they should be in and should make"? Be happy that "use of UI" got you to +100 instead of the -600 you were booked for.

The other issue with that is "because there isn't the option for trumps/need to attack hearts first, the situation wouldn't come up to block themselves. So, wouldn't have happened" or "blockage caused by needing to take 10 tricks; in 3NT the misplay would be 'take your 9 runners'."

The more traditional case (and an additional controversy) is "6 made, on an 'only hope' play, after hesitation blackwood. Do we award +450 or +480 in 5?"

Sorry, I've been sitting on this one for a couple of days, because I'm not sure I can make a case where I would have to be concerned - so I'm not sure what to think about it.
When I go to sea, don't fear for me, Fear For The Storm -- Birdie and the Swansong (tSCoSI)
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