[michel444]

Gilithin, on 2022-September-13, 14:46, said:

The right call depends on what hands your 1♦ overcall can contain. ♠Qxxx ♥Qxx ♦Qxx ♣Qxx matches the description of your call - you really do not want to be bidding 4♠ (or frankly even 3♠) over that.

y not ? opponet may have a 3NT or 5 Diamond what south bid with 6 diamond ?after an "overcall" of 1 diamond ?

[DavidKok]

mycroft, on 2022-September-13, 08:39, said:

I am well known for being an idiosyncratic (read: wrong) bidder. But I'd really like to know why 1♦ is "standout", and why IMPs matter.

I seem to be the only one advocating against a takeout double, but I'll share my thoughts anyway.

I think a takeout double should be slightly stronger than this. Partner will often raise me to 2M with about 8-9 HCP and a 4cM, or compete to the 3-level with a 5-card suit. I think this will often be the wrong decision opposite this hand, at least in part because my aces are pulling their weight on defence. Swap the aces for two kings and a queen and I would be a lot more comfortable. Also the standard responsive structure over (1♣)-X-(P)-? is kind of lousy - partner will often have to 'take a view' with a so-so 12 HCP. We also don't stand to gain that much - if the opponents bid and raise clubs, then either they subside in a partscore and we get a second (albeit worse) shot later or they rush to game and we're happy to not have disclosed some of our assets.
Personally I think the main ways taking action can help is by 1) getting to a sharp game, 2) sacrificing over their (club) game or 3) putting on the pressure quickly by getting to the par or total trick level quickly. I think double may help accomplish the first but may also actively harm it (see above, partner will somewhat frequently be rushed into a wrong guess since we don't have our values), and if I double and partner jumps to 2♥ (4+, 8-11) I'm not actually happy about it so number 3 is at risk as well. If we're sacrificing over 5♣ we need partner to have significant shape, and partner may act on their own with a hand like that even if we pass. Lastly there's the not insignificant risk of redouble, which always looms when you takeout double on subpar values.

By contrast, 1♦ at least helps us put on the pressure or sacrifice if partner has a diamond fit, and we can still recover if partner has a major suit (though we'll miss some 4-4 spade fits). It also doesn't promise lots of values, our response structure is very clean and it is difficult to penalise. Some other poster mentioned that 1♦ increases the bidding space for the opponents (true), but the standard continuations hardly makes use of this (weak/trap pass and double to show exactly 4=4 majors are both infrequent) so I'm not that worried about helping the opps. If they were playing T-Walsh and play system on they also don't use the extra step well, in fact I don't think many people do.

Now for the form of scoring: at IMPs 1-over-1 overcalls can be weak, don't promise a good suit and are trying to fish for a raise from partner. I don't think this suit quality is much of an issue, although of course I would like a better one if available. The goal is not to directly obstruct the auction, but to hope that partner can make a bid on their turn that can obstruct (either through a raise or bidding a major suit). At matchpoints I think bids like this should be much more lead-directing, and therefore typically show a stronger suit. Furthermore, at matchpoints the risk of ending in a diamond partial when we belong in a major suit is significant, while at IMPs I just shrug if we go 2♦+1 while the field is in 3♠C. The risks, rewards and expectations are quite different, and I would probably bid 1♠ at the table at matchpoints (though I confess I wouldn't be able to do it in tempo, so maybe I'd have passed before realising 1♠ is better).

[Tramticket]

DavidKok, on 2022-September-14, 01:09, said:

I think a takeout double should be slightly stronger than this.

I’m not generally an advocate for light takeout doubles, but this has much more strength than most 10-counts. K&R values this as 12.45 and I would consider it an opening hand.

DavidKok, on 2022-September-14, 01:09, said:

if I double and partner jumps to 2♥ (4+, 8-11) I'm not actually happy about it

It isn’t ideal but I don’t see why a heart contract at the two-level should play badly – even if it is a Moysian. You are ruffing clubs with three-card holding. By contrast, if you choose to overcall in spades and partner raises on a three-card holding, you will be uncomfortably forced on club leads.

[paulg]

paulg, on 2022-September-13, 10:08, said:

I'm very comfortable with doubling here. It is minimum, but I'm in and out of the auction quickly.

Gilithin, on 2022-September-13, 10:18, said:

As you are one of the better posters here Paul, I have to ask if you would feel just as comfortable with a random non-expert pick-up partner? or if the comfort comes from knowing your partner will not hang you by doing something stupid?

To be honest I don't play with random partners (of any standard), but I'd be happy to double with any non-random partner: the experts will not hang me and the non-experts are generally looking to improve, so it may become a learning opportunity.

As others have said or implied, this is a good hand if you do more than just count points. Prime values, support for all three unbid suits and a relatively safe entry into the auction.

It will not work out every time, but when you hit a fit you will also make life far more difficult for the opponents. And making life more difficult is a major part of the game these days as everyone bids so much better than in the past.

[P_Marlowe]

Pass, ... If I have to finde a bid, I would go with T/O.

If you have it av., the hand maybe a 1NT Raptor Overcall
for you. You could also use a Michaels Cue.

Both options have the adv., that they bring 2-suits into
play, dont overstate the suit quality of the diamonds suit,
and steal space.
The only real downside is, you loose the heart suit.

[mycroft]

Thanks David. I don't have that style, but I appreciate the explanation. It really wasn't making sense to me. Will think on it - as almost always with your posts.

[johnu]

Double - 100
3NT - 50
4♥ - 50
1♠ - 40
1♦ - 40
Other - 30

[michel444]

DavidKok, on 2022-September-13, 07:07, said:

I'd bid 1♦ at IMPs, and probably also at matchpoints though I could easily be convinced that this is a bad idea at that form of scoring. A 1♠ overcall is also interesting at MPs. Pass and double are poor choices.

MAYBE SHOULD MAKE A NEW THREAD

4+SPADE 8+HCP

---

East west have a contract of 4♥ ?
what went wrong

[Gilithin]

michel444, on 2022-September-17, 15:52, said:

East west have a contract of 4♥ ?
what went wrong

You start the auction with 1♣ - P and ask why the pair did not bid game? Maybe you would like to re-think that.

[Cyberyeti]

michel444, on 2022-September-17, 15:52, said:

MAYBE SHOULD MAKE A NEW THREAD

4+SPADE 8+HCP

---

East west have a contract of 4♥ ?
what went wrong

Well I never pass 1♣ particularly if it can be short with the E hand and also playing standard methods I bid 2♥ not 1, I also would double when 3♠ came back to me if I did bid 1♥, we get to 4♥, they prob save in 4♠

[AL78]

michel444, on 2022-September-17, 15:52, said:

MAYBE SHOULD MAKE A NEW THREAD

4+SPADE 8+HCP

---

East west have a contract of 4♥ ?
what went wrong

West forgot they have a stonking maximum one level opener. I think that is worth bidding 2♥ on the second round.

East is worth a 1♥ response if West understands East could hold sub-minimal responding strength with a club shortage and a five card major.

[bluenikki]

Tramticket, on 2022-September-13, 09:25, said:

Also, there is a significant problem with overcalling on a four-card suit on this hand. When you eventually win the contract in a Moysian-fit spade contract, you will be forced in clubs!

when you are declaring a 4-3, you don't call it being forced. You call it reversing the dummy.

[Cyberyeti]

bluenikki, on 2022-September-18, 04:39, said:

when you are declaring a 4-3, you don't call it being forced. You call it reversing the dummy.

Or a crossruff

[michel444]

AL78, on 2022-September-18, 02:14, said:

West forgot they have a stonking maximum one level opener. I think that is worth bidding 2♥ on the second round.

East is worth a 1♥ response if West understands East could hold sub-minimal responding strength with a club shortage and a five card major.

seem to me that the biding of South is unclear South enter the auction with 1 Diamond to Show 4+♠ and 8+ High count point
in balancing position South should have more point his partner inability to bid over 1 club say he is limited and unlikely to have a 4 cards major and 8+point
but may have a balanced 9-12 with no 4 cards major
the best south can do is pass and let them play 1♣

[Gilithin]

michel444, on 2022-September-18, 09:12, said:

in balancing position e should have more point his partner inability to bid over 1 club say he is limited and unlikely to have a 4 cards major and 8+point but may have a balanced 9-12 with no 4 cards major

East might have a balanced 9-12 for their Pass of a 1♣ opener? You are just trolling now, right?

[michel444]

Gilithin, on 2022-September-18, 13:43, said:

East might have a balanced 9-12 for their Pass of a 1♣ opener? You are just trolling now, right?

I am a troll but i am no troling
my basic aproch to biding is first and second chair can be light you dont do this with stranger
the basic structure off second chair defense
is
pass very bad hand
double 2+ cards in opening suit 14+ HPC any shape
overcall
1 Major 4+cards suit with at least 1 top honor 4+trick NV 5+ trick Vul
may have a longer minor
2 ♦ over a minor opening a good 6+ Major around 6-7 loser
2♥ over a minor 4+♥ and 5+ ♠ around 6-7 loser
2♠ over a minor 5+♠ 8 loser NV 7 loser vul can be a bad suit with no defense in other suit
2 NT strong 2 suiter with less then 5 loser every suit is 5+ long
over Major opening
1NT over major opening SPL in there major 14+point including the void or singleton
2 of suit in general a 5+ cards suit with at least 1 top honor not good for double or t/o NT
2 of there major a strong minor 6+ long 6- loser
2 spade over 1 heart a Good 6+ cards Spade suit 6 loser
2 NT strong 2 suiter with less then 5 loser every suit is 5+ long (not 5 in there Major )
3 minor over 1 Major 5+ cards in minor and 5+ in other Major 5-6 loser (stronger hand bid 2NT)

that not all but most of it

[Gilithin]

East is third seat - West opened. You moved the thread on from the OP with post #28.

[michel444]

Gilithin, on 2022-September-18, 13:43, said:

East might have a balanced 9-12 for their Pass of a 1♣ opener? You are just trolling now, right?

i edited my post

[michel444]

Gilithin, on 2022-September-18, 13:43, said:

East might have a balanced 9-12 for their Pass of a 1♣ opener? You are just trolling now, right?

North may have a 9-12 HPC balance with no 4 cards Major