[euclidz]

I have the EBU's summary of what muct be 'Announced' 'Alerted' taking aside all those specific calls specified in that doc that must be 'announced / aleterd my question is this . . . . .

When a pair do not have a Systems Card on the table do the rules require that they 'Announce' their system before play or is it a matter for the opposition to ask?

[mycroft]

The rules (as I, a non-English person, can see) require only:

Blue Book said:

:3 A 1 Pairs are required to have two fully completed system cards containing the same information. At the beginning of each round they should make these available to their opponents.

I'm sure there is a suggestion at least that a default system announcement be given in general, but given the above, I can understand why I can't find anything about "when they don't do what is required".

All arguments related to "we're filling in, we started working on our card at 1305 in this 1300 game" apply, of course.

Again, ACBL person here, simply reading the regulations, not living them. And "theory is the same as practise", in practise, is a nice theory.

[euclidz]

LAW 40 - PARTNERSHIP UNDERSTANDINGS A. Players’ Systemic Agreements
1. (a) Partnership understandings as to the methods adopted by a partnership may be reached explicitly in discussion or implicitly through mutual experience or awareness of the players. (b) Each partnership has a duty to make its partnership understandings available to its opponents. The Regulating Authority specifies the manner in which this is done. 2. Information conveyed to partner through such understandings must arise from the calls, plays and conditions of the current deal. Each player is entitled to take into account the legal auction and, subject to any exclusions in these laws, the cards he has seen. He is entitled to use information specified elsewhere in these laws to be authorized. (See Law 73C.)


The Regulating Authority specifies the manner in which this is done. . . . . . What does the EBU specify be done?

[axman]

euclidz, on 2022-March-10, 09:29, said:

I have the EBU's summary of what muct be 'Announced' 'Alerted' taking aside all those specific calls specified in that doc that must be 'announced / aleterd my question is this . . . . .

When a pair do not have a Systems Card on the table do the rules require that they 'Announce' their system before play or is it a matter for the opposition to ask?

There was a time when L40A1b required announcing the partnership methods before the round. Law or no law this is right thing to do and the only sensible way to do so is with the convention card- and requests for clarification (some partnerships have conditional agreements that must be ascertained in regards to their opponents' method).

Everyone has the duty to schedule time to ensure the completion of their convention card before starting play. It's called fair play. And if you need 30 minutes after game time to complete your convention card there is a consequence called assigned scores and slow play.

[pran]

axman, on 2022-March-10, 13:15, said:

There was a time when L40A1b required announcing the partnership methods before the round. Law or no law this is right thing to do and the only sensible way to do so is with the convention card- and requests for clarification (some partnerships have conditional agreements that must be ascertained in regards to their opponents' method).

Everyone has the duty to schedule time to ensure the completion of their convention card before starting play. It's called fair play. And if you need 30 minutes after game time to complete your convention card there is a consequence called assigned scores and slow play.

For what it is worth:
Norwegian regulations require that the opener's partner announces opening bids within the range 1♣ through 2♠ except 1♥ and 1♠.

(A consequence is of course that none of these opening bids shall ever be alerted.)

[pescetom]

pran, on 2022-March-10, 14:36, said:

For what it is worth:
Norwegian regulations require that the opener's partner announces opening bids within the range 1♣ through 2♠ except 1♥ and 1♠.

(A consequence is of course that none of these opening bids shall ever be alerted.)

So do Italian regulations, except that one should only not announce 1♥/1♠ if they show 5+ cards (which might well be what you meant to say anyway).
FWIW I think the principle that one should announce all natural or semi-natural 1 level opening bids is a good idea, but the exception for 5-card majors is not.
Less problematic and more consistent to announce "5+ cards" in that case too, which is what I will argue yet again at Salsomaggiore next week.

[mycroft]

Euclidz - read the Blue Book. That has all the regulations for system cards, alerting and announcing (and legal methods). There may not be an answer to your OP question, of course, because of the regulation I quoted last time.

[pran]

pran, on 2022-March-10, 14:36, said:

For what it is worth:
Norwegian regulations require that the opener's partner announces opening bids within the range 1♣ through 2♠ except 1♥ and 1♠.

(A consequence is of course that none of these opening bids shall ever be alerted.)

pescetom, on 2022-March-10, 16:06, said:

So do Italian regulations, except that one should only not announce 1♥/1♠ if they show 5+ cards (which might well be what you meant to say anyway).
FWIW I think the principle that one should announce all natural or semi-natural 1 level opening bids is a good idea, but the exception for 5-card majors is not.
Less problematic and more consistent to announce "5+ cards" in that case too, which is what I will argue yet again at Salsomaggiore next week.

No, 1♥ and 1♠ shall never be announced here, but they must (of course) be alerted in case.

[pescetom]

pran, on 2022-March-11, 03:35, said:

No, 1♥ and 1♠ shall never be announced here, but they must (of course) be alerted in case.

In which case? Natural 4+cards, or mainstream 5+cards?

[pran]

pescetom, on 2022-March-11, 07:41, said:

In which case? Natural 4+cards, or mainstream 5+cards?

If they deviate from 'normal understanding', for instance:

May be weaker than (say) 11 or 12 HCP, showing less than 4 cards in the named suit, showing suit(s) different from or in addition to the named suit and so on.

[pescetom]

pran, on 2022-March-11, 10:39, said:

If they deviate from 'normal understanding', for instance:

May be weaker than (say) 11 or 12 HCP, showing less than 4 cards in the named suit, showing suit(s) different from or in addition to the named suit and so on.

So assuming a normal understanding of 11+HCP and named suit, no alert or announcement for either 4+cards or 5+cards?
Or is 4+cards normal and 5+cards not?

[blackshoe]

The answer to the question posed in the OP is no, it's a matter for calling the director.

[pran]

pescetom, on 2022-March-12, 16:49, said:

So assuming a normal understanding of 11+HCP and named suit, no alert or announcement for either 4+cards or 5+cards?
Or is 4+cards normal and 5+cards not?

Why should 5+cards not be 'normal'?

[pescetom]

pran, on 2022-March-13, 02:44, said:

Why should 5+cards not be 'normal'?

You could consider either or both to be normal, for various reasons (the former Italian regulations considered 4+ normal and 5+ alertable, the current ones consider 5+ normal and 4+ announceable). But at least one of the two should be announced, otherwise you lose all the advantages of announcement based regulations (opponents have to ask, UI, etc.).

[pran]

pescetom, on 2022-March-13, 04:01, said:

You could consider either or both to be normal, for various reasons (the former Italian regulations considered 4+ normal and 5+ alertable, the current ones consider 5+ normal and 4+ announceable). But at least one of the two should be announced, otherwise you lose all the advantages of announcement based regulations (opponents have to ask, UI, etc.).

4+ includes of course the possibility of a 5-card suit.
I see no reason to explicitly announce (or alert) neither 4+ nor 5+ with 1♥ or 1♠ opening bids.

[pescetom]

pran, on 2022-March-13, 09:45, said:

4+ includes of course the possibility of a 5-card suit.
I see no reason to explicitly announce (or alert) neither 4+ nor 5+ with 1♥ or 1♠ opening bids.

In that case you fail to see the reasoning behind announcements, I would argue (of course you would not be alone in that).