[lamford]

---

If one had a Crystal Ball, one would know what partner will do if we pass, double or bid 5C. But I left mine at home ...

[mw64ahw]

 lamford, on 2021-September-30, 04:05, said:

---

If one had a Crystal Ball, one would know what partner will do if we pass, double or bid 5C. But I left mine at home ...

Is 4♠ preemptive or Namyats?

[pilowsky]

 mw64ahw, on 2021-September-30, 04:19, said:

Is 4♠ preemptive or Namyats?

If it was Namyats, what would 4♠ mean?

[LBengtsson]

my advice. never come in over a preempt with a poor hand. 7330 is good shape with ♦AK but without one ♦ honor this hand is also a preempt. vulnerability right to make a bid but I would not. pass

[DavidKok]

Usually Namyats refers to using 4♣ and 4♦ as "strong trick-taking hands with hearts/spades respectively", typically something like 8 playing tricks with a self-sufficient 7-card suit. There have been other versions of this, such as bundling both hand types in a 3NT opening instead, or modifying the exact requirements (HCP maximum, side-suit aces/kings restrictions or completely changing the range). One upside of Namyats is that your direct 4♥/♠ opening are always weak, whereas without this convention you lose the option to jump to the 4-level with these strong hands, giving the opponents more time to find a profitable sacrifice.
I don't see the appeal of reversing the minor and major suit bids - one of the upsides of using 2-under transfers for Namyats is partner's ability to show a non-minimum by bidding the extra step (some pairs reverse the extra step and the major suit bid).

Back to the actual board: I think I'm passing. Our hand is weak enough that we don't have to worry about missing slam (if one is on partner will probably take action). There is a chance of a double game swing - most likely 5♣ versus 4♠ - but there is also a significant risk that 4♠ is not making and that partner will raise any action on our part to a disastrous slam. I would really love to bid 5♣ here, expecting it to be a cheap sacrifice (or slight swing if both contracts were off) but I'm too concerned partner will raise.

[Cyberyeti]

 DavidKok, on 2021-September-30, 04:46, said:

Back to the actual board: I think I'm passing. Our hand is weak enough that we don't have to worry about missing slam (if one is on partner will probably take action). There is a chance of a double game swing - most likely 5♣ versus 4♠ - but there is also a significant risk that 4♠ is not making and that partner will raise any action on our part to a disastrous slam. I would really love to bid 5♣ here, expecting it to be a cheap sacrifice (or slight swing if both contracts were off) but I'm too concerned partner will raise.

I think I agree with you that pass is right although slam is perfectly possible where you have a double fit.

[mw64ahw]

 pilowsky, on 2021-September-30, 04:28, said:

If it was Namyats, what would 4♠ mean?

I use a version where 4♥ and 4♠ would be of minimum opening bid strength rather than purely pre-emptive

[nige1]

lamford 'If one had a Crystal Ball, one would know what partner will do if we pass, double or bid 5C. But I left mine at home ...'
++++++++++++++++++
Some arguments for pass are:
- ♣s are topless.
- Red suits are only 3-cards in length.
- Also, although we probably have a game somewhere, partner will expect more high cards, so bidding might get us to an unmakeable slam.
- Some opponents use 3N or 4♦ to show a good ♠ suit, hence a 4♠ opener shows a gappy suit.

---

[lamford]

Their CC did not show any way of showing a good 4M. If you pass, partner will as well, which is what you might expect.

[pescetom]

 mw64ahw, on 2021-September-30, 04:19, said:

Is 4♠ preemptive or Namyats?

As it wasn't alerted, they are not playing Namyats (or reverse Namyats either).

[Winstonm]

Although I want to bid I won't, mainly because partner will rightly expect more than this if I do. Besides, they have not made 4S and may not.

[TylerE]

X for me. Mostly hopeing partner can pass.

Too much shape to pass.

[nullve]

5♣

[mikeh]

 TylerE, on 2021-September-30, 08:49, said:

X for me. Mostly hopeing partner can pass.

Too much shape to pass.

Double is, to me, the worst of all options.

Partner will/should pass with all modest flattish hands

Say he has Jxx xxx Jxx Axxx

He’ll pass in a heartbeat….the prototypical direct double of 4S is a semi-balanced hand worth about a strong notrump opener (without any suggestion of a stopper, of course)

And if he has, say, 2=5=4=2/2=4=5=2 with values to bid, he’ll bid 4N and pull your 5C to 5D, showing the reds….you guess where your 8 card fit lies.

Personally, this seems to me to be such an obvious (tho uncomfortable) pass that I’m tempted to bid 5C, lol. Whenever someone posts a problem that appears to have an obvious answer, there’s a good chance that that answer led to a poor outcome, so to ‘win’ the thread, one should do something that one wouldn’t do in real life.

Look, if I knew that partner had no rights, and my choices were to pass, and defend 4S, or to bid 5C and take my lumps if it proved wrong, id bid 5C.

But I like playing with intelligent partners.I like my partners to have equal rights to those I assume for myself.

So if I bid 5C, many of the times when that’s a great call will lead partner to bid a hopeless slam.

And if I pass, partner is still there. If he doubles, for instance, I’m bidding 6C, with the expectation that it will have play.

This problem reminds me of the old S.J. Simon distinction between trying for the best possible contract (id bid 5C) or trying for the best contract possible (I pass).

[lamford]

 mikeh, on 2021-September-30, 14:31, said:

Double is, to me, the worst of all options.

Partner will/should pass with all modest flattish hands

I think that pass is the worst of all options. Partner will/should then pass with all modest flattish hands, and you probably have a good save or even a make. Is it not the case that at these colours partner will strain to bid rather than pass? On the actual hand both 4S and 5C are making, although one swallow does not a summer make.

[mikeh]

 lamford, on 2021-September-30, 17:46, said:

I think that pass is the worst of all options. Partner will/should pass with all modest flattish hands, and you probably have a good save or even a make. Is it not the case that at these colours partner will strain to bid rather than pass? On the actual hand both 4S and 5C are making, although one swallow does not a summer make.

Seriously? You think pass is worse than double?

We play different games.

I can understand 5C….but you think you’re reaching 5C very often after double? Wow.

[lamford]

 mikeh, on 2021-September-30, 19:39, said:

Seriously? You think pass is worse than double?

We play different games.

I can understand 5C….but you think you’re reaching 5C very often after double? Wow.

We are reaching 4Sx quite often after double. On the actual hand partner had Kxx xxx Qx AKQTx and he passed which I disagreed with it at these colours, as did a couple of strong players in the ALT online whom I asked. If partner is something like xxx Axx Qxxx Qxx he should not pass and will bid 4NT and you will reach 5C, which is cheap. Partner should not pass at these colours without expecting to beat it. At all other colours, I would agree with you completely.

[lamford]

 mikeh, on 2021-September-30, 19:39, said:

Seriously? You think pass is worse than double?

We play different games.

I can understand 5C….but you think you’re reaching 5C very often after double? Wow.

We are reaching 4Sx quite often after double. On the actual hand partner had Kxx xxx Qx AKQTx and he passed which I disagreed with it at these colours, as did a couple of strong players in the ALT online whom I asked. If partner is something like xxx Axx Qxxx Qxx he should not pass and will bid 4NT and you will reach 5C, which is cheap. Partner should not pass at these colours without expecting to beat it. At all other colours, I would agree with you completely.

The other South bid 5C on my hand, which made. That was also better than Pass.

[pescetom]

 lamford, on 2021-October-01, 13:58, said:

We are reaching 4Sx quite often after double.

It would be interesting to know if you are right.

Unfortunately ...

[Winstonm]

 lamford, on 2021-October-01, 14:01, said:

We are reaching 4Sx quite often after double. On the actual hand partner had Kxx xxx Qx AKQTx and he passed which I disagreed with it at these colours, as did a couple of strong players in the ALT online whom I asked. If partner is something like xxx Axx Qxxx Qxx he should not pass and will bid 4NT and you will reach 5C, which is cheap. Partner should not pass at these colours without expecting to beat it. At all other colours, I would agree with you completely.

The other South bid 5C on my hand, which made. That was also better than Pass.

I’m sorry but what you are saying is that partner should know based on his flat 8 count with a defensive trick that your
double means you want to sacrifice in your 7-card suit that you didn’t bid? Seems a bit of a stretch doesn’t it?