[Cyberyeti]

RMB1, on 2019-October-19, 13:30, said:

EBU Blue Book 4B4
"Once the auction is above the level of 3NT, no calls are to be alerted except for:
(a) Artificial suit bids above 3NT made before the opening bidder’s second turn to call (i.e. the first bid and the next three calls)"

(my emphasis)

So the intent is totally screwed up by a forcing pass ? in that opener has showed values, but not actually bid merely called so his second action after he shows values also falls under this ?

[pescetom]

blackshoe, on 2019-October-19, 10:04, said:

OP appears to be in India, so India's regs would apply. The IBF Alerting Policy is at Appendix 3 of this document.

Interesting to see that in India too psych bids are prohibited in lower levels of competition.

[Vampyr]

RMB1, on 2019-October-19, 13:30, said:

EBU Blue Book 4B4
"Once the auction is above the level of 3NT, no calls are to be alerted except for:
(a) Artificial suit bids above 3NT made before the opening bidder’s second turn to call (i.e. the first bid and the next three calls)"

(my emphasis)

LOL Cannot work out from this whether a 4NT opening bid is alertable!

[Vampyr]

pescetom, on 2019-October-19, 15:13, said:

Interesting to see that in India too psych bids are prohibited in lower levels of competition.

This is fine, as long as these lower level competitions have no association with the national body, the regional body or the WBF.

[captyogi]

Yes, I am From India. So Bridge Federation of India ( BFI ) Regulations Applicable.

Reading All Above Replies I am More Confused.
Things Should Be Simple , Beyond 3NT Level Do Not Alert.
But For Safety Many Prefer to Alert as otherwise after the Bidding is Over Opps Call TD and He Did Not Alert, I Reserve My Right.

[sanst]

nige1, on 2019-October-19, 07:46, said:

This illustrates the chaos caused by unnecessary regulation, especially when local variation multiplies confusion. The only upside is that we can create a "loony trivia quiz", asking which calls are alertable e.g.

• 4♣ (Gerber)?
• 4N (Specific ace ask) ?
• 1♠ Pass 4♣ (Splinter)?
• 1♠ Pass 2♠ Pass 4♣ (Splinter)?
• 1♣ 4♣ (Pre-empt) Pass (Forcing)?
• 1♣ 4♣ (Pre-empt) Double (Take-out)?
• 1♣ 4♣ (Pre-empt) Double (Lead-directing)?
• Pass (Natural) Pass 1♠ Pass 4♣ (Splinter)?
• Pass (Forcing) Pass 1♠ Pass 4♣ (Exclusion)?

No. I don't now the answers. I doubt any player does. IMO...

• All calls should be announced by the caller's partner (preferably by pointing to relevant boxes in a matrix of common explanations).
• The only exception being when opponents ask you not to announce.
• Even then, the declaring side would have to explain their auction before the opening lead.

These suggestions would save rain-forests. They would simplify relevant rules, perhaps enabling some players and directors to understand them. Arguably, they would also make the game more fun, speed it up, and reduce UI.

Rather than discussing the number of angels dancing on a pin I prefer the main rule of the Dutch regulation “Alert when you have reason to believe that your opponents might not be aware of the meaning of a call”. Still, you’re not allowed to alert calls over 3NT with the exception etc., or doubles unless the main rule applies. Overalerting - probably not in the OED - is not considered a serious infraction, but the use of the UI of course is. Problem: many weaker players hate an auction with a lot of alerting, like Puppet Stayman.

[pescetom]

sanst, on 2019-October-20, 01:43, said:

Problem: many weaker players hate an auction with a lot of alerting, like Puppet Stayman.

Those who hate it are usually just resentful that they don't fully understand the auction even with explanations. I don't think that alerts have much to do with it. They hate control bidding or Kickback too and those are not alerted.

[pescetom]

captyogi, on 2019-October-20, 01:09, said:

Yes, I am From India. So Bridge Federation of India ( BFI ) Regulations Applicable.

Reading All Above Replies I am More Confused.
Things Should Be Simple , Beyond 3NT Level Do Not Alert.
But For Safety Many Prefer to Alert as otherwise after the Bidding is Over Opps Call TD and He Did Not Alert, I Reserve My Right.

With those clear rules things are simple. Do not alert over 3nt except for artificial calls in first round. If opponents call TD he will remind them of the rules.

[weejonnie]

9 Pass (Forcing) Pass 1♠ Pass 4♣ (Exclusion)?

In the EBU a forcing pass by agreement on the first round is not allowed - so the problem does not arise. (Blue Book 7A2 and 9A2)

[RMB1]

Cyberyeti, on 2019-October-19, 14:42, said:

So the intent is totally screwed up by a forcing pass ? in that opener has showed values, but not actually bid merely called so his second action after he shows values also falls under this ?

It is a tacit assumption in the Blue Book that opening forcing pass systems will only be permitted in events with screens (where WBF alerting applies.)

[Cyberyeti]

RMB1, on 2019-October-20, 04:47, said:

It is a tacit assumption in the Blue Book that opening forcing pass systems will only be permitted in events with screens (where WBF alerting applies.)

I used to play at clubs that allowed them

[sanst]

pescetom, on 2019-October-20, 03:07, said:

Those who hate it are usually just resentful that they don't fully understand the auction even with explanations. I don't think that alerts have much to do with it. They hate control bidding or Kickback too and those are not alerted.

Usually they don’t understand the auction at all. 2NT* (not necessarily balanced and therefore alerted)-3♣* (puppet stayman)-3♦* (4-card(s) M)-4♦ (both M, not alerted but I will warn before the OL less experienced opps that it’s not what they might think) get their heads spinning and quite often irritates them. “We play normal bridge!” or something like that.

[Cyberyeti]

sanst, on 2019-October-20, 07:07, said:

Usually they don’t understand the auction at all. 2NT* (not necessarily balanced and therefore alerted)-3♣* (puppet stayman)-3♦* (4-card(s) M)-4♦ (both M, not alerted but I will warn before the OL less experienced opps that it’s not what they might think) get their heads spinning and quite often irritates them. “We play normal bridge!” or something like that.

Happens round here, I once had a system that was legal at all normal licencing levels banned at one local club (1m both ♣/♦/bal big NT lots of potential canapes) because their mainly octagenarian members couldn't cope with it.

[barmar]

pescetom, on 2019-October-20, 03:07, said:

Those who hate it are usually just resentful that they don't fully understand the auction even with explanations. I don't think that alerts have much to do with it. They hate control bidding or Kickback too and those are not alerted.

While that may be true in many cases, I think even experts find auctions where every bid is alerted to be tiresome. Last week at the club a Precision pair was in a relay auction where it took at least a half dozen rounds before they made it past 3NT and could stop alerting everything.

I wish there were just alerts for "beginning relay" and "ending relay", and we could take it for granted that everything in between is artificial.

[RMB1]

Cyberyeti, on 2019-October-20, 06:53, said:

I used to play at clubs that allowed them

I suggest that clubs that have regulations for permitted agreements that permit value-showing initial passes should adopt appropriate alerting regulations.

[pescetom]

sanst, on 2019-October-20, 07:07, said:

Usually they don’t understand the auction at all. 2NT* (not necessarily balanced and therefore alerted)-3♣* (puppet stayman)-3♦* (4-card(s) M)-4♦ (both M, not alerted but I will warn before the OL less experienced opps that it’s not what they might think) get their heads spinning and quite often irritates them. “We play normal bridge!” or something like that.

"Don't understand" may sometimes be unjust, but at least they find it difficult and resent the fact that it is not "normal". I agree, just don't see what it has to do with Alert, they usually ask for explanations and the outcome is the same in any case.

We play a variant of true puppet stayman over both 1NT and 2NT, so it often goes something like 1NT("15-17") - 2♣*("asks for 5-card major, does not promise strength or a 4-card major") - 2♦*("no 5-card major", "has he a 4-card major?", "you know as much as I do", frown) - 2♥*("asks for 4-card spades") - 3♣*("denies 4-card spades, shows max HCP") - 3NT - p.
They seem to find this more stressful than 1NT("15-17") - 2♣*("Stayman") - 2♥ - 2♠ - 3NT - p, even though "Stayman" means nothing, 2♠ may or may not have been forcing and the final contract is exactly the same.
I would have more sympathy if they resented not knowing whether opener has 4-card hearts

[Vampyr]

sanst, on 2019-October-20, 07:07, said:

Usually they don’t understand the auction at all. 2NT* (not necessarily balanced and therefore alerted)-3♣* (puppet stayman)-3♦* (4-card(s) M)-4♦ (both M, not alerted but I will warn before the OL less experienced opps that it’s not what they might think) get their heads spinning and quite often irritates them. “We play normal bridge!” or something like that.

So... your system does not permit to to check for majors and then show diamonds?

[smerriman]

Vampyr, on 2019-October-20, 19:29, said:

So... your system does not permit to to check for majors and then show diamonds?

It's just normal puppet Stayman, so yes it does. If you had one four card major and diamonds, you'd bid three of the other major over 3♦, then can show a minor over 3NT.

[Vampyr]

smerriman, on 2019-October-20, 19:42, said:

It's just normal puppet Stayman, so yes it does. If you had one four card major and diamonds, you'd bid three of the other major over 3♦, then can show a minor over 3NT.

Yes, the trouble is when you were hoping for a 5-card major. You think of bidding 3M as denying that major. If you instead think of it as showing the other major, you will be able, if you wish, to develop better methods.

[smerriman]

Vampyr, on 2019-October-20, 21:12, said:

Yes, the trouble is when you were hoping for a 5-card major. You think of bidding 3M as denying that major. If you instead think of it as showing the other major, you will be able, if you wish, to develop better methods.

3♦ by opener has already denied a 5 card major.