[Poky]

IMP. All love.

1♣ 1♥ 3♣* 3♥
Dbl pass ???

* Weak

♠Kxx
♥xx
♦Qx
♣1098xxx

Do you agree with 3♣?
What is your bid on Dble?
What do you expect from partner's Dble?

[mike777]

No, strongly disagree with 3clubs.

1) 6322 shape is terrible
2) all my hcp outside my suit.

strongly prefer 2clubs....will compete to 3 clubs if need, otherwise pass.

Let the opp sort it out over 2clubs.

Just think if P doubles 3h now over my 2club bid...or 3club rebid..I have easy pass!

[MickyB]

3♣ is absolutely fine. Double is penalty orientated so I pass.

[Chamaco]

I like 3C, with less outside wastage I'd have bid 4 clubs (5 if the hand had a singleton somewhere).
With outside values, I guess 3C is fine.
-----------------------

Pard double is for penalty.
It makes no sense to use takeout doubles opposite a partner who preempted.
No reasons to pull, since we also offer more defensive tricks than he expects.

[whereagles]

Agree with 3C. Would prefer honors to be in clubs, but ok.

Double is probably showing a 18-19 balanced hand. It is quite possibly that LHO, under pressure, has done the wrong thing by taking the push to 3H. On top of the tactical situation, my hand is defensive-oriented. All this hints at a pass.

Note that unless opps are loonies, pard's double cannot be pure penalty. It's not a "pass regardless of what you have, pard" type of double.

[luke warm]

3♣ seems ok to me... now i'd pass... maybe i'll take a trick

[inquiry]

Poky, on May 16 2005, 04:22 AM, said:

Do you agree with 3♣?

If you play 3♣ as purely preemptive, yes. But see below.

Quote

What is your bid on Dble?

If your 3♣ was "preemptive" by agreement, i pass.

Quote

What do you expect from partner's Dble?

To set it two tricks because my spade king, and diamond queen would be unexpected pluses.

I have had a lot of sucess with a different scheme, where 3♣ is "weak" put not this weak. And i use a jump to 2NT to be despirately weak preemptive hands like this, or game-force with big fit in clubs. Partner bids over 2NT, and with the weak hand, you are out of the auction, with the GF hand, you make another bid. A side effect of this jump to 2NT, you partner can make doubles over 3♣ more easily, as you actually promise some values, and he will not double so readily over 2NT as you may not have even a trick, or only one trick on defense. This was suggested to me by Misho, and is not a popular treatment, but i have found hand after hand where it has worked out well for me. The 2NT has to be soooooo weak, partner is not encouraged to bid 3NT with 18-19 balanced, because if so, you have wrong-sided teh contract, and the 3 of minor has to be strong enough where he would be encouraged to bid 3NT with that hand.

[flytoox]

Pass. Hehe, it is my turn to say "what is the problem?"

[inquiry]

flytoox, on May 16 2005, 07:24 AM, said:

Pass. Hehe, it is my turn to say "what is the problem?"

3NT +1 = 430?
6♦, 2♣, 2♠ or 6♦, 3♣, 1♠ ... or something like that... .

[flytoox]

inquiry, on May 16 2005, 11:36 AM, said:

flytoox, on May 16 2005, 07:24 AM, said:

Pass. Hehe, it is my turn to say "what is the problem?"

3NT +1 = 430?
6♦, 2♣, 2♠ or 6♦, 3♣, 1♠ ... or something like that... .

If that is the case, then pd made the wrong decision, not me. My 3C says, pd, I bid it for preemptive, but if you have 18-19hcp then you can bid 3N. 3C says everything I have. Yet pd decided to punish opps. Note that 3H is forced, not a jump. It could be based on only three trumps.

If you bid anything, I think you are showing no trust of pd.

[pbleighton]

"If you bid anything, I think you are showing no trust of pd."

Agree completely.

Also, 3C was fine.

Peter

[reisig]

I see that evryone agrees with Pass at this point..but not about the 3C bid.
3C is not ideal (but I never get the perfect hand anyway) --but clearly is OK.
As for Passing the double (what's the problem?) - I have a problem with that..How does opener make a game try? In my partnerships when the X is under the overcaller - its always take-out. What should partner do with say:
!s Axx !h x !d AKxx !c KQxxx ? There is only game try bid available over 3!h and that is 3!s. So - I'd use X as a try..and be happy to bid 3!s.

[flytoox]

reisig, on May 16 2005, 12:35 PM, said:

I see that evryone agrees with Pass at this point..but not about the 3C bid.
3C is not ideal (but I never get the perfect hand anyway) --but clearly is OK.
As for Passing the double (what's the problem?) - I have a problem with that..How does opener make a game try? In my partnerships when the X is under the overcaller - its always take-out.  What should partner do with say:
!s Axx !h x !d AKxx  !c KQxxx ?  There is only game try bid available over 3!h  and that is 3!s.  So - I'd use X as a try..and be happy to bid 3!s.

If you agree with pd to play dbl as some sort of t/o, i have no problem with that and I can even play that. But when there is no discussion, dbl has to be for blood. With the hand you gave, you can bid 3S or just bid 5C.

I think in competitive auction, judge is far more important/useful than convention.

As Fred always said, birdge is complicated enough. I really want to keep it as simple as possible.

[Free]

pass...

[mikestar]

I could go either way on 3C--your ODR is a quite low, but the enemy probably has a heart fit, I'd prefer to take away the extra level.

Having premepted with a low ODR, pass of partner's penalty double is a no brainer and taking it out with these cards is expressing the view that partner doesn't know what he is doing.

As this isn't a pure, you absolutely must pass penalty double, there are hands where I would overrule--shapely, very high ODR hadns that weren't quite good enough for 4C/5C intially--inlcuding but not limited to any hand with a heart void.eart.

[han]

Agree and pass, both seem clear.

I think 2C followed by 3C is awful in general. 6322 with bad trumps may not be the best, but we are talking about 6-card support here.

After I make a preempt, partner has control, so the double is pure penalty. Passing is partnership violation imo.

[mike777]

Hannie, on May 16 2005, 10:32 AM, said:

Agree and pass, both seem clear.

I think 2C followed by 3C is awful in general. 6322 with bad trumps may not be the best, but we are talking about 6-card support here.

After I make a preempt, partner has control, so the double is pure penalty. Passing is partnership violation imo.

I guess I am the only one here who strongly prefers to just bid my hand and let P have better picture of my hand. Most seem to prefer to preempt opp and mislead p to thinking we have side shortness or club HCP.
Prefer 3 clubs to show shortness, with 2c and then 3clubs p knows I deny shortness but have very long clubs.

Prefer that 1c has denied balanced 14-16 or 18-19 and many semi balanced hands in that range but of course with pick up p we are not playing that.

[PriorKnowledge]

3C is perfect. It says, "I am weak with a bunch of clubs," which is exactly what you have.

Now you pass. You have even more than partner could expect with the KS, QD, and no wasted club honors. Again - Perfect.

Except for conventional bids, when you make a preempt, the opps bid over it and your partner doubles... That is penalty.

The purpose of the preempt is make the opps guess at a high level. Your partner's double says, "HA HA... They guessed wrong!"

[keylime]

3C for some is an UNDERBID.

Assuming colors are favorable, FIVE clubs is coming from me.

At these colors, tough. I want to put some pressure - FOUR clubs.

[beatrix45]

Good practical problem.

1. Personally, I like your initial 3♣ bid, assuming it is consistent with your system i.e 'weak'

2. I would bid 4♣. My hand is very weak, and it has one more club than expected. This enhances its offensive power and detracts from our defensive strength.

3. The double is a little unusual. Partner has doubled them into game playing IMPs. To me, she is saying that it is our hand, and she won't be stolen from. I expect some length and strength in ♥ (maybe Axx), and an interest in playing 3NT (a balanced or semi-balanced 18+ nice-looking, working HCP). Maybe:

♠ AJ9
♥ A87
♦ A93
♣ AQ54

Even opposite the defensive rock crusher shown above, we might not beat 3 ♥ if the ♦ Q is onside, clubs are 3-0, and we can't cash three spades. At IMP teams, I am a devout coward when faced with the prospect of taking -530 back to the other table. At IMP pairs, I can see a pass, maybe. +300 is more nearly worth the risk of -530, and 4 ♣ figures to go down.

Bottom line, I feel fixed on this hand, but I will stay fixed with a 4 ♣ bid.