[Vampyr]

 msjennifer, on 2019-July-17, 01:45, said:

Sir,After the second round onwards ,as far as I understand, any call above 3NT need not be alerted.So any artificial bid like the so called baby Blackwood need not be alerted if the bid exceeds 3NT.

That is a big if because 3NT does not exceed 3NT.

Many years ago, when I first learned of Baby Blackwood, it was an opening bid. In any case, if you using 3NT as a slam-try in a major, surely Serious 3NT will be more useful. As mentioned above, if you need only to check on aces to decide on slam, the 5-level will virtually always be safe. If your intention is to check on aces and then stop in game, it seems difficult to imagine that you will have more hands suitable for this treatment than hands where the 4-level can be used to better effect.

[phoenixmj]

 Stephen Tu, on 2019-July-16, 22:29, said:

You seem to have fallen into the common int trap of utilizing blackwood as a slam TRY. Blackwood is supposed to be slam AVOIDANCE; you have decided you have 12 tricks unless off two keycards or one plus the queen. The problem is blackwood doesn't tell you if partner has extras or if a key suit is stopped. Maybe you are only off one ace, but you are off AK of one suit. Or maybe you have enough keycards and not two tricks off top, but run out of tricks.

Good bidders resolve these other issues with cue bidding, if they trot out rkc the 5 level should nearly always be safe barring really bad breaks, there's very rarely advantage from the lower ask. Nobody good I've ever seen use 3nt as ace asking; actually I've never heard of this till now. Far more common, if willing to give up 3nt with established major fit, are either "non-serious" or "serious" 3nt, basically a mark time bid that denies or shows extras, vs cues bypassing 3nt, to help in auctions where no one is limited. If one hand's range is already tightly defined, another useful possibility is a shortness ask. When hearts are trumps it can also be useful to swap meanings of 3s/3nt for structure consistency.

Thank you - that is a really good point. And I confess I have fallen into that trap. Your perspective is definitely a better one. In a similar vein - we did just adopt redwood so this avoids problems we ran into with minors.

I like the approach of 3N to say - slam interest or not (extras or not) - then cue bids would be forthcoming if either partner has interest.

Thanks again.

[phoenixmj]

 Stephen Tu, on 2019-July-16, 22:29, said:

You seem to have fallen into the common int trap of utilizing blackwood as a slam TRY. Blackwood is supposed to be slam AVOIDANCE; you have decided you have 12 tricks unless off two keycards or one plus the queen. The problem is blackwood doesn't tell you if partner has extras or if a key suit is stopped. Maybe you are only off one ace, but you are off AK of one suit. Or maybe you have enough keycards and not two tricks off top, but run out of tricks.

Good bidders resolve these other issues with cue bidding, if they trot out rkc the 5 level should nearly always be safe barring really bad breaks, there's very rarely advantage from the lower ask. Nobody good I've ever seen use 3nt as ace asking; actually I've never heard of this till now. Far more common, if willing to give up 3nt with established major fit, are either "non-serious" or "serious" 3nt, basically a mark time bid that denies or shows extras, vs cues bypassing 3nt, to help in auctions where no one is limited. If one hand's range is already tightly defined, another useful possibility is a shortness ask. When hearts are trumps it can also be useful to swap meanings of 3s/3nt for structure consistency.

When asking for shortness - is this Mathe bids?

I can see that if your suit is hearts - you could have the 3NT bid as serious or non-serious, and ALSO have the 3s bid as asking for shortness.

If your suit is spades - seems like you have to decide on what 3Nt will mean as you cannot do both.

Am I reading this correctly? I am just reading about serious 3nt and mathe now - so this is new to me. But, I really like the idea of getting this information from partner.

[Stephen Tu]

Yes, shortness ask is the Mathe ask. This is useful when partner's range is known but distribution is not. Like after 1M 3M limit raise. Or 1m 1M 3M. Over hearts, 3s asks, 3nt is cue in spades.

Serious / frivolous 3nt is more useful in situations where both partners are effectively unlimited, strength ranges undefined, you want partner to cue despite minimum or not cue if also minimum.

[msjennifer]

 Vampyr, on 2019-July-17, 09:12, said:

That is a big if because 3NT does not exceed 3NT.

Many years ago, when I first learned of Baby Blackwood, it was an opening bid. In any case, if you using 3NT as a slam-try in a major, surely Serious 3NT will be more useful. As mentioned above, if you need only to check on aces to decide on slam, the 5-level will virtually always be safe. If your intention is to check on aces and then stop in game, it seems difficult to imagine that you will have more hands suitable for this treatment than hands where the 4-level can be used to better effect.

Sir,we alert all our conventional bids at any level of bidding.We do play the 'serious 3NT bid' as also the '4NT bypass' and we alert those too.As my Dad says
"The rules are there.But still, there is no harm if one alerts ALWAYS.It is not illegal isn't it ? unless your opponents have asked NOT TO BE ALERTED" I have used the word ALWAYS because we did meet a pair who alerted a bid made after a pause, ,say 4C,when they wanted partner to know that it was a conventional bid and not a natural one.They did not alert the same bid when it was a natural bid.I think that is not honest bridge.(however it is legal as per the rules).---THANKS.

[pescetom]

 msjennifer, on 2019-July-18, 20:32, said:

Sir,we alert all our conventional bids at any level of bidding.We do play the 'serious 3NT bid' as also the '4NT bypass' and we alert those too.As my Dad says
"The rules are there.But still, there is no harm if one alerts ALWAYS.It is not illegal isn't it ? unless your opponents have asked NOT TO BE ALERTED" I have used the word ALWAYS because we did meet a pair who alerted a bid made after a pause, ,say 4C,when they wanted partner to know that it was a conventional bid and not a natural one.They did not alert the same bid when it was a natural bid.I think that is not honest bridge.(however it is legal as per the rules).---THANKS.

I think you are a bit confused about the rules here. The RA may establish that it is an infraction to alert a given conventional call beyond 3nt, or to fail to alert simply because opponents request that. The Laws strictly forbid agreements such as intentional variations in tempo which have a hidden meaning - this is not only illegal but seriously punished if proven.

[blackshoe]

 neilkaz, on 2019-July-15, 18:22, said:

I've never understood the purpose of this! For example, when the bidding goes 1♦-1♠-4♣ and you have to ask "splinter?" if you care, you've also alerted the opps if they've had a mix up.

So what? They are legally prohibited from taking any advantage of having been awakened in this way.

[Vampyr]

 msjennifer, on 2019-July-18, 20:32, said:

Sir,we alert all our conventional bids at any level of bidding.We do play the 'serious 3NT bid' as also the '4NT bypass' and we alert those too.As my Dad says
"The rules are there.But still, there is no harm if one alerts ALWAYS.It is not illegal isn't it ? unless your opponents have asked NOT TO BE ALERTED" I have used the word ALWAYS because we did meet a pair who alerted a bid made after a pause, ,say 4C,when they wanted partner to know that it was a conventional bid and not a natural one.They did not alert the same bid when it was a natural bid.I think that is not honest bridge.(however it is legal as per the rules).---THANKS.

Here the opponents are not permitted to ask a pair not to alert. But it is important to no alert when the RA says you must not. Yes there are ridiculous regulations like not alerting doubles. Still, the situation you mention is a real danger. In the EBU, bids above 3NT are not alerted after the first round of bidding. Recently our opponents bid, unopposed, 1NT-2♣-2♥-4NT (alerted). This was RKCB. Who plays that? I was not inclined to believe them but my partner said to let it go

[pescetom]

 Vampyr, on 2019-July-22, 02:49, said:

Recently our opponents bid, unopposed, 1NT-2♣-2♥-4NT (alerted). This was RKCB. Who plays that? I was not inclined to believe them but my partner said to let it go

I wouldn't automatically disbelieve them. If obliged to play a traditional Stayman I would play 4NT as quantitative and 3♠/4♣/4♦ as control-bids fixing hearts as trumps, but without some similar fit-showing forcing bid I can't see what responder with slam interest can do unless they agree to play his 4NT as RKCB. I seem to remember that some people play a jump in the other major as artificial fit-showing forcing, but that's already too sophisticated for many partnerships.

[Vampyr]

 pescetom, on 2019-July-22, 07:06, said:

I wouldn't automatically disbelieve them. If obliged to play a traditional Stayman I would play 4NT as quantitative and 3♠/4♣/4♦ as control-bids fixing hearts as trumps, but without some similar fit-showing forcing bid I can't see what responder with slam interest can do unless they agree to play his 4NT as RKCB. I seem to remember that some people play a jump in the other major as artificial fit-showing forcing, but that's already too sophisticated for many partnerships.

It’s not always a jump in the other major; 3♥ over 2♠ is not a jump. This is pretty much standard here, but the opponents In question were not strong players.

Anyway, you could just bid your better minor, as that would at least force to game. Or something; I don’t know. Just... something else. Maybe they were not playing 2-way 4NT. It just seemed a little uspicious that the guy alerted, when no one, and I mean absolutely no one, alerts here.

[Stephen Tu]

Why would you not believe them? Weaker, less experienced players are precisely the people for whom 4nt is always blackwood, and at the same time may not know alerting regulations thoroughly.

[pescetom]

 Vampyr, on 2019-July-22, 09:08, said:

It’s not always a jump in the other major; 3♥ over 2♠ is not a jump. This is pretty much standard here, but the opponents In question were not strong players.

Anyway, you could just bid your better minor, as that would at least force to game. Or something; I don’t know. Just... something else. Maybe they were not playing 2-way 4NT. It just seemed a little uspicious that the guy alerted, when no one, and I mean absolutely no one, alerts here.

I would play 3♥ over 2♠ as natural 4-card ♥ inviting slam, leaving 4♥ as artificial fit-showing inviting slam (if I can't play it as control-bid). A minor would be 5+cards game forcing.

Like Stephen I would assume first that they are hardwired 4NT bidders and little else. But if it looks suspicious then certainly call Director.