[phoenixmj]

We have recently added puppet stayman over 2 NT and I have a question on subsequent bids if responder has slam interest.

If opener says 2NT, and responder bids 3 clubs puppet. Opener rebids to show a 5 card major - either 3H or 3S.

I responder has a strong hand, and a 4 card fit with the 5 card M, and slam interest - how do you proceed?

This came up and I bid 4NT - RKC and we wound up in 6S which was correct. Is there anyway to cue bid to show controls since responder has not had the opportunity to show a fit?

Any and all help is appreciated.

[Cyberyeti]

Well you got slightly lucky, I would play 4N as quantitative, what do you do with an invitational 2434 when partner shows 5♠?

You can bid 2N-3♣-3♠-4♥ to show a spade fit and slam aspirations, you can also use 3♠ as a heart fit and slam interest and 4♠ as keycard over 3♥ and keep the quantitative 4N.

[phoenixmj]

Cyberyeti, on 2019-July-02, 15:19, said:

Well you got slightly lucky, I would play 4N as quantitative, what do you do with an invitational 2434 when partner shows 5♠?

You can bid 2N-3♣-3♠-4♥ to show a spade fit and slam aspirations, you can also use 3♠ as a heart fit and slam interest and 4♠ as keycard over 3♥ and keep the quantitative 4N.

Wow - thanks so much. I googled this and could not find it anywhere. I agree I got lucky - that is the best part of my game:)

[helene_t]

2nt-3♣
3♥-?
--- 3♠ = clubs (and presumably 3-4 spades)
--- 4♣ = diamonds (and presumably 3-4 spades)
--- 4♦ = slam interest with 3-4 hearts
--- 4♠ = RKC for hearts
--- 4NT = Quanti

2nt-3♣
3♠-?
--- 4♣ = diamonds (and presumably 3-4 hearts)
--- 4♦ = clubs (and presumably 3-4 hearts)
--- 4♥* = slam interest with 3-4 spades
--- 4NT = Quanti

*you might play this bid as optional RKC. With a suitable hand, opener shows keycards. If he signs off with 4♠, responder can ask for keycards now.

[KingCovert]

If 4NT is quantitative, then why isn't 4 clubs just Gerber? What's the point of cuebidding? Partner has a flat 20-21 HCP hand and you know where their suit length is... This is a keycard situation.

Everything else should probably be a splinter or exclusion keycard in support of the 5 card major.

[pescetom]

Helene's approach is interesting, but for my tastes we're too high to pattern out here. For us 3nt or a raise to game are to play, anything else shows implicit fit and fixes trumps, with bids below RKCB being control bids and bids above being exclusion.

[Cyberyeti]

KingCovert, on 2019-July-02, 22:11, said:

If 4NT is quantitative, then why isn't 4 clubs just Gerber? What's the point of cuebidding? Partner has a flat 20-21 HCP hand and you know where their suit length is... This is a keycard situation.

Everything else should probably be a splinter or exclusion keycard in support of the 5 card major.

You can do this, but what do you do with 4 of the other major and 5+ clubs ?

[nige1]

phoenixmj, on 2019-July-02, 14:51, said:

We have recently added puppet stayman over 2 NT and I have a question on subsequent bids, f responder has slam interest. If opener says 2NT, and responder bids 3 clubs puppet. Opener rebids to show a 5 card major - either 3H or 3S.I responder has a strong hand, and a 4 card fit with the 5 card M, and slam interest - how do you proceed? This came up and I bid 4NT - RKC and we wound up in 6S which was correct. Is there anyway to cue bid to show controls since responder has not had the opportunity to show a fit?Any and all help is appreciated.

A simple. approach e.g. After 2N - 3♣ - 3♠ -

• 3N/4♠ = S/O. To play.
• 4♣/♦ = NAT S/T. 0-2 ♠s, 5+♣s/♦s.
• 4♥ = RKC. Agreeing ♠.
• 4N = INV. Quantitative.
• 5♣/♦/♥ = EXC. Voidwood.

[Cyberyeti]

nige1, on 2019-July-03, 10:12, said:

A simple. approach e.g. After 2N - 3♣ - 3♠ -

• 3N/4♠ = S/O. To play.
• 4♣/♦ = NAT S/T. 0-2 ♠s, 5+♣s/♦s.
• 4♥ = RKC. Agreeing ♠.
• 4N = INV. Quantitative.
• 5♣/♦/♥ = EXC. Voidwood.

This is kinda what I'd do, but I'd make 4♥ invitational keycard with 4♠ saying minimum and 4N re-asking.

[pescetom]

Cyberyeti, on 2019-July-03, 03:49, said:

You can do this, but what do you do with 4 of the other major and 5+ clubs ?

I'm aware you didn't ask me, but my reply is bid 3NT (assuming a weakish hand with no 3-card fit with opener's major).
Opener cannot have a fit in the other major and if he has decent clubs then all the better.
He has a 5-card suit of his own and half the pack, 3NT is probably the best spot and if it isn't we'll be in numerous company.

If the hand is slammish but not there in HCP terms, control-bid or keycard in his major and then see if 6NT is on the cards.

[KingCovert]

Cyberyeti, on 2019-July-03, 03:49, said:

You can do this, but what do you do with 4 of the other major and 5+ clubs ?

You do realize that partner is showing a 5332 hand right? I concede it's possible for partner to be 5422 on rare occasions, but I would personally never do so with both majors.
The contract should almost always be No-Trump unless you have compelling reason to think the diamonds are wide open in this example.
But now, if you wind up playing some higher number of No-Trump, you have telegraphed the lead now of course...

Puppet Stayman is designed to help preserve your ability to find the 5-3 fit, so I don't understand the significance/emphasis placed on continuations where you hold 4 of the wrong major, and the need to describe this reality. Are you hoping to find some miracle Moysian fit that makes when 3NT doesn't? Bidding past 3NT on a hand that has no slam interest, on a hand that may have no makeable game past 3NT is just bad bridge. And Moysian fit slams??? I'm not even going to address that possibility. So I'd discard the notion of showing the other major.... What could you possibly hope to achieve other than telling opponents what lead is correct?

If you'd prefer that 4C and 4D both be Minor Suit Keycard, in the respective suits, in the sequences where Opener shows a 5-card major... That has some merit. You could end up passing 4NT when 4D is bid though. That could help you find your minor suit slam. It'll help to find the No-Trump slam too...

But your partner has described their hand almost entirely, 20-21 HCP, 5332, and you know what the 5 card suit is. Take a position on the hand. If you can't make 3NT in your mind, consider raising their major with 2-card support or bidding 5 clubs or 5 diamonds. You've got ~60% odds of 3 card support. You're the captain of this ship, your partner has little else to say other than to describe keycards. What good could can patterning out your hand possibly do?

[apollo1201]

KingCovert, on 2019-July-03, 14:34, said:

What good could can patterning out your hand possibly do?

You were probably never dealt sth like

Kx
xxxx
AQJxx
xx

Chances in 6D appear fine, establishing S for discards, if partner has a fit and a nice hand (no QJx in side suits). Obviously, if I don’t ask, I’ll never know.

Otherwise, we end up in 4NT but I can stand that with 10 HCPs. But in all cases I am a little too weak to make a quantitative invite for slam.

[Cyberyeti]

KingCovert, on 2019-July-03, 14:34, said:

You do realize that partner is showing a 5332 hand right? I concede it's possible for partner to be 5422 on rare occasions, but I would personally never do so with both majors.
The contract should almost always be No-Trump unless you have compelling reason to think the diamonds are wide open in this example.
But now, if you wind up playing some higher number of No-Trump, you have telegraphed the lead now of course...

Puppet Stayman is designed to help preserve your ability to find the 5-3 fit, so I don't understand the significance/emphasis placed on continuations where you hold 4 of the wrong major, and the need to describe this reality. Are you hoping to find some miracle Moysian fit that makes when 3NT doesn't? Bidding past 3NT on a hand that has no slam interest, on a hand that may have no makeable game past 3NT is just bad bridge. And Moysian fit slams??? I'm not even going to address that possibility. So I'd discard the notion of showing the other major.... What could you possibly hope to achieve other than telling opponents what lead is correct?

If you'd prefer that 4C and 4D both be Minor Suit Keycard, in the respective suits, in the sequences where Opener shows a 5-card major... That has some merit. You could end up passing 4NT when 4D is bid though. That could help you find your minor suit slam. It'll help to find the No-Trump slam too...

But your partner has described their hand almost entirely, 20-21 HCP, 5332, and you know what the 5 card suit is. Take a position on the hand. If you can't make 3NT in your mind, consider raising their major with 2-card support or bidding 5 clubs or 5 diamonds. You've got ~60% odds of 3 card support. You're the captain of this ship, your partner has little else to say other than to describe keycards. What good could can patterning out your hand possibly do?

What good can it do ? when you have a bit to spare but no guaranteed slam K10xx, xx, x, KJ10xxx for example I'd like to be able to find out whether partner has QJx, AKQxx, Axx, Ax where 3N is not great and 5♣ or 4♥ are better, or Ax, AKxxx, Axx, AQx where 7♣ is excellent.

[helene_t]

Showing a long minor suit is not meaningless. If you have 5 or 6 in a minor alongside your 4-card major, you sometimes want to play a minor suit slam.

[KingCovert]

You all miss the entire point of my post. This is fundamental bridge, don't overthink this. Your partner has announced to the table that they have 20-21 HCP with 5332 distribution, and they've specified which suit they possess the 5-card holding in. By bidding Puppet Stayman, you've already determined the appropriate game to play across every possible response. If you have no slam ambitions, signoff in the game you planned to signoff in. If you do have slam ambitions, why are you describing your hand? Your partner is a passenger on this hand, get the information you need and set the contract. And, the only thing you care about on this hand is the key card situation, so that you might count your winners or fast losers. Your job is to disguise your hand from opponents and decide on the contract. You shouldn't make a single bid that describes your hand, ideally.

Your partner cannot make any judgements on this hand, there are just no invitational sequences outside of a 4NT quantitative bid, and the 5NT invitation to grand. This is for a good reason... I suggest you do some thinking on this... (Hint: it says something about your strength, but almost nothing about your shape. It also suggests the desired contract...)

apollo1201, on 2019-July-03, 15:04, said:

You were probably never dealt sth like

Kx
xxxx
AQJxx
xx

Chances in 6D appear fine, establishing S for discards, if partner has a fit and a nice hand (no QJx in side suits). Obviously, if I don’t ask, I’ll never know.

Otherwise, we end up in 4NT but I can stand that with 10 HCPs. But in all cases I am a little too weak to make a quantitative invite for slam.

So, explain to me, what is wrong with 4D being minor suit keycard in diamonds? Get the keycard situation and set the contract... Either 4NT, 5D, 6D, 6NT, 7D, or 7NT... Does telling partner you have 4 hearts on this hand help you? Is partner ever going to value that? The answer is no. Your partner is never going to value those 4 hearts, small or large. And again, why are you letting partner take any judgements on this hand?

Cyberyeti, on 2019-July-03, 17:42, said:

What good can it do ? when you have a bit to spare but no guaranteed slam K10xx, xx, x, KJ10xxx for example I'd like to be able to find out whether partner has QJx, AKQxx, Axx, Ax where 3N is not great and 5♣ or 4♥ are better, or Ax, AKxxx, Axx, AQx where 7♣ is excellent.

Sure sounds like a keycard situation to me, and your 4 spades are irrelevant. You don't even need partner to have the double-ton spade, you can probably establish the 5th heart. It's a good slam. A 4 keycard response and a magical response showing the K♥ and Q♣ when you queen ask is sufficient to bid 7 here.

helene_t, on 2019-July-03, 18:07, said:

Showing a long minor suit is not meaningless. If you have 5 or 6 in a minor alongside your 4-card major, you sometimes want to play a minor suit slam.

Again, just repeating myself, do you need 4 of the major to play in the minor suit game or slam? I don't understand the obsession. When did I say the minor suit was meaningless? It's the only thing that matters... that's the point...

In the auction 2NT - 3♣ - 3♥:

• 3NT is to play
  
• 4♣ is gerber or minor suit keycard in clubs (partnership agreement)
  
• 4♦ can be minor suit keycard in diamonds
  
• 4♥ is to play
  
• 4NT is quantitative
  
• 5♥ is a horrible invitational sequence to 6♥ that can almost never be right
  
• 5NT is an invite to 7♥ (You can correct to 7NT)

What is 3♠? It's a cue-bid, or it asks partner to cue-bid.

[Cyberyeti]

KingCovert, on 2019-July-04, 13:27, said:

Sure sounds like a keycard situation to me, and your 4 spades are irrelevant. You don't even need partner to have the double-ton spade, you can probably establish the 5th heart. It's a good slam. A 4 keycard response and a magical response showing the K♥ and Q♣ when you queen ask is sufficient to bid 7 here.

Too much typing not enough thinking. Sure 4♣ as keycard is great when partner has the whale, but what are you going to do when he shows 3 rather than 4 ?

And actually you do need him to have a doubleton spade, discarding your 4th spade on the 5th heart doesn't help, you need hearts 3-3 if he has the 35(32) version of that hand.

[apollo1201]

KingCovert, on 2019-July-04, 13:27, said:

You all miss the entire point of my post.


So, explain to me, what is wrong with 4D being minor suit keycard in diamonds?

The hands that the 3 of us exposed can’t KC as they are not sure of the situation opposite in the minor. Opener could have stretched and have a singleton A of K sometimes.

Those hands have in common a slightly insufficient strength to propose slam in NT so 4NT quanti can be ruled out. They can play slam only if opener has a fit and has a suitable hand. So opener can’t just answer his keys. He has to revert to NT with no desire and good stops in the other minor, and has to do sth else if he likes his hand given the bidding. Could indeed answer his keys. Or cue sth (cant do both methods obviously). Or just bid 6m. But I like this optional KC treatment tbh. Will discuss it with partner.

Tte fact that we have 4 in the other major (or 3, we could be 1363 or 2353) is the reason Puppet was used. I don’t quite understand why you focus on this aspect of the hands.

The dialog is:

2NT (I have half of the deck, man, and am kinda balanced) - 3C (what U have in M?)
3S (got 5S) - 4D (ok, I dont like S, maybe U like D, and btw, given I pupetted first, I probably have 3 or 4H, but we don’t give a *** now)
4NT (I don’t like your Ds, we definitely seem misfitted, time to drop now) or sth else (let’s go darling)

Of course with a non promising hand like

xx
Qxxx
AJxxx
xx

You bid 3NT over 3S and play there.

[helene_t]

KingCovert, on 2019-July-04, 13:27, said:

Again, just repeating myself, do you need 4 of the major to play in the minor suit game or slam?

Lol no, of course not. But you need some way to bid a hand with a 4-card major and a longer minor. Without the 4-card major, you just start with a transfer to your minor. Just like you bid after a 1NT opening.

But apparently we agree since you suggest playing 4m as minorwood which I suppose will imply a long minor suit.

[Zelandakh]

KingCovert, on 2019-July-04, 13:27, said:

You all miss the entire point of my post.

Actually I think you will find that you are the one missing the point.

KingCovert, on 2019-July-04, 13:27, said:

This is fundamental bridge, don't overthink this.

it really is pretty fundamental. We want to find out if we have a suit fit for slam purposes and need auctions available to us for that purpose. You seem to think that Opener being 5M(332) is the end of the story and the only remaining possible question is how many aces and kings are being held.

KingCovert, on 2019-July-04, 13:27, said:

Your partner has announced to the table that they have 20-21 HCP with 5332 distribution, and they've specified which suit they possess the 5-card holding in.

Ok, so the auction starts 2NT - 3♣; 3♠ and we hold a 2452 hand with slam interest. Do we have a diamond fit? If we do, we might want to ask for key cards or we might just want to make a slam invite. if not, we might want to sign off in NT, make a quantitative slam invite or just bid slam. Now let us look at your proposed structure:

KingCovert, on 2019-July-04, 13:27, said:

In the auction 2NT - 3♣ - 3♥:

• 3NT is to play
  
• 4♣ is gerber or minor suit keycard in clubs (partnership agreement)
  
• 4♦ can be minor suit keycard in diamonds
  
• 4♥ is to play
  
• 4NT is quantitative
  
• 5♥ is a horrible invitational sequence to 6♥ that can almost never be right
  
• 5NT is an invite to 7♥ (You can correct to 7NT)

Perhaps you can explain the path you plan to take with the various hand strengths here because, quite frankly, I cannot see that you can make any sensible decisions at all. Indeed, this is arguably the worst possible structure at this point outside of random calling. Compare that with what happens when 4m opens a constructive dialogue - now suddenly we can handle almost all of the cases.

if you really want to focus on key cards here it is necessary to use optional key card sequences. If 4m sets a question "Do you have 3 card support?" with answers of the first step for "no" and the second thru 5th steps for "Yes, and this many key cards", then it just about hangs together. With a 6+ card minor Responder could naturally continue with 4♥ (after 2NT - 3♣; 3♠ - 4♣; 4♦) or 4♠ (after 2NT - 3♣; 3♠ - 4♦; 4♥) to check for key cards. There are still some issues with this approach but at least it allows Responder to make some informed choices along the way. Your suggestion on the other hand is simply very very bad.

One last tip: chastising other posters while writing rubbish is generally not a good way to introduce yourself to a new forum. There are plenty of knowledgeable posters here if you take the time to read and learn rather than trying to teach. Mikeh has played at the highest levels of international competition and some others are also regulars at big events. Please do not fall into the trap of thinking you know everything - we can all see already from just 14 posts that that is certainly not the case.

[KingCovert]

These replies are hilarious... C'mon.... Just try to be a bit more honest. Why would anyone in their right mind STRETCH a 2NT opener? Are the rest of your systems so abysmal that you don't trust them to find the correct contract? If you want to hypothesize why your proposed solutions are better because they cater to hands you aren't allowed to hold.... Well, good luck playing bridge that way.

It really seems like none of you understand the dangers of patterning out your hand so thoroughly... I hope that you remember this one day when you wonder why opponents always find the correct lead to defeat your marginal games and slams. Why does any new suit at the 4-level have to promise or deny a fit? Does your partner need to know where you're playing? 4♣ can be minor suit keycard and you can fully intend to play 6/7 of partner's major.

2NT - 3♣ - 3♠ while holding

KQXX
X
KXX
AT9XX

Minor suit keycard in clubs here tells a pretty complete story. But what are the proposed options? 4♦ artificial slam try in spades? and 4♥ as Roman Key Card? Do either of these bids help this hand? Grand could quite easily be cold here. I'm not even saying I like the proposed solution I made, I made it up in like a minute. I'm just trying to highlight the point. The 2NT opener is a passenger, gather the information you need and make a judgement. As soon as that hand opened 2NT it became a passenger. Stop trying to bring it back into the auction. On the 3% of hands where it's useful you've gained, on the rest you're just helping the defense.