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What to do with strong 2 hands in 2/1

#21 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2018-November-16, 01:52

 billyjef, on 2018-November-15, 21:53, said:

4S in the pass out seat?

Sure. After three passes partner is bidding 4♠ to make, and will already have taken into account I'm likely to have a few points. I won't be thinking Qx Axxx xxxx Kxx means we have 12 top tricks.
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Reverse engineering GIB, part 1: A treatise on the insanity of bidding simulations
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#22 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2018-November-16, 02:34

 Stephen Tu, on 2018-November-15, 20:14, said:

22 is for balanced hand hcp. With unbalanced and solid long suit you can open 2c on considerably less; some 19s, occasional 18s, depending on length and solidity of the main suit, side controls. The top end of 1s is the boundary of the bottom end of 2c, there is no gap, you either judge it just good enough for 2c or not quite. The exact location of the boundary is going to be a judgement call and differ from player to player. On a lot of hands it won't matter, at the edges sometimes you will regret opening 2c if it gets too high, on others regret opening 1s if you get too low. Some of this is luck or not of partner's hand mesh. But generally you are trying to decide whether not opening 2C misses game/slam too much, or if opening 2c gets to too many hopeless games, or slams if partner plays you for more, over all the hands.


Most sensible comment on here along with the badger's. You can't bid any hand perfectly. Standard 2 club opening bids - and we know there are exception to the rules - should have a minimum of 5 quick tricks. I don't look at the point count but the playability opposite a Yarborough or near pointless hand. That's what you expect for the majority of time opposite a 2 club opener: partner with very little.
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#23 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2018-November-16, 05:57

One obvious answer, if you are finding the transition from Strong Acol Two's to Weak Two's is to consider playing Benjamin Two Bids.

Benji has a bad reputation and I would certainly agree that there are downsides to Benji (as with any system), but it is playable and it gives a good stepping-stone away from Strong Two's. In essence, the 2♣ bid is used for the 8+ playing trick hands and the 2♦ bid (which isn't particularly effective as a Weak Two) is then unconditionally game forcing.

 thepossum, on 2018-November-15, 19:12, said:

What I'm getting at is that there is a big gap between a strong 1S and 2C in many circumstances


 TylerE, on 2018-November-15, 19:52, said:

There really isn't.


Sorry TylerE, but ThePossum is addressing a genuine issue. If 2♣ is forcing to game, then the range between a minimum one-level opening (say 10+ for most of us) and a hand, just short of a a game-force is uncomfortably wide. Precision and other strong club systems is one effective way to reduce this gap. Acol Strong Twos or Benji also reduces the range of a one level opening (at a cost).

The current standard practice to deal with this is to tend to reduce the strength requirements for a 2♣ opening and not make it 100% forcing to game, combined with a reduced requirement for a one-level response (5+ is normal these days). But compromises are involved and it is disingenuous to pretend that there is no issue.
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#24 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2018-November-16, 09:12

 thepossum, on 2018-November-15, 18:38, said:


Also I played strong 2s and ACOL for years and don't need a lecture



Then what the ***** are you doing posting so much nonsense in the Novice forums?
Alderaan delenda est
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#25 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2018-November-16, 09:32

 thepossum, on 2018-November-15, 19:12, said:

Let's make this easier.

Let's say I have 8 and half tricks but not enough for 2C

What I'm getting at is that there is a big gap between a strong 1S and 2C in many circumstances


What you are discussing is the flaw in approach-forcing style of bidding. If you go into the history of bridge, no less of expert than Howard Schenken wrote a book about the inadequacies of American bidding compared to the Italian Blue Team, adopting a forcing club system himself to overcome the very problem you are discussing.

The short answer to your question is this: pick a method and live with the results. If you open those hands 1, you will miss game on occasion; if you open them 2C, you will get too high on occasion and have difficulty clarifying hand strengths.

If you don't like those choices, adopt a strong club system to fill the gaps in approach-forcing.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
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#26 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2018-November-16, 09:34

 thepossum, on 2018-November-15, 19:52, said:


Here is one recent example. I considered 2C or 2NT here but obviously didn't like 2NT and thought it was too weak under the system for 2C. I know it's borderline but you have good control
Ignore subsequent bidding and lay of cards. I'm talking about S hand only

 gordontd, on 2018-November-16, 01:13, said:

Here you go again. You ask questions and then abuse those who take the time to answer them in a perfectly reasonable manner. Carry on like this and they won't bother.

GordonTD offers good advice to thePossum. Also, honesty and openness are admirable, but to avoid critical comment on posts like this, thePossum should edit out any bidding and play, that he deems irrelevant.
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#27 User is offline   DozyDom 

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Posted 2018-November-16, 10:28

 thepossum, on 2018-November-15, 19:12, said:

Let's make this easier.

Let's say I have 8 and half tricks but not enough for 2C

There is no such hand as that. But hands slightly weaker than that - especially with the spade suit, which makes a passout more likely - are the problem with the highly wide-ranging opening bids in 2/1, SAYC, and Acol as it's played today. You'll survive - jump rebids and reverses get the message of your strong hand across. And remember that partner isn't actively trying to make live harder for you - they will push themselves to respond, for exactly this reason.

Incidentally, hrothgar, do you swear at people down at your local club? I know I don't, no matter that I think my opponents are muppets. Perhaps manners are different in your area.

By the way, telling someone both that their questions are moronic and not worth asking, and that they are too good to be a novice, seems contradictory at best. If you play for thirty years and learn nothing, you're still a beginner as far as I am concerned.
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#28 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2018-November-16, 10:45

 DozyDom, on 2018-November-16, 10:28, said:


Incidentally, hrothgar, do you swear at people down at your local club? I know I don't, no matter that I think my opponents are muppets. Perhaps manners are different in your area.



Got the director called on me at a Nationals for telling LHO

"Listen lady, I am sick of you and your god damn whining. Sit down, shut up, and play a ***** card."

Does that count?

Quote

By the way, telling someone both that their questions are moronic and not worth asking, and that they are too good to be a novice, seems contradictory at best.


You seem to be assuming good faith on the part of the original poster
I do not.

Rather, I am noting a contradiction in the way in which The Possum has portrayed himself and his subsequent claims...
Alderaan delenda est
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#29 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2018-November-17, 03:32

 thepossum, on 2018-November-15, 19:55, said:

Of course there is a big gap. You can bid 1S with 11 or 20 points and you need 22 for 2C

I agree, but the problem is not 2/1.
The problem is that the range for one bids have increased over the years for natural systems, because opening bids have become lighter and requirements for 2♣ stronger.
Something has to give.
I believe the requirements for 2♣ have become too restrictive. HCP is not the right gauge for unbalanced hands whether to open 2♣ or not
Bridge is a game of probabilities and if you have a hand where you do not want partner to pass 2♣ is often the solution.

I would open



with 2♣ every day of the week and consider 1♠ a serious mis-bid.
This hand will make game unless partner is broke and has a total misfit with you. It is a losing policy to assume that.

Unbalanced hands in the HCP range of a 2NT opening have sufficient strength to force to game.
Also hands with fewer loser (if you know how to count them properly) than quick tricks qualify even when lower in HCP range.

For example I would consider 2♣ appropriate on

(most would never think of opening this hand 2♣, but I think it is sensible)

but not on



You may have to refrain from 2♣ when holding a strong two suiter or three suiter for different reasons, because they can be hard to describe when you start with an artificial 2♣ opening.
These hands can be a nightmare.

Rainer Herrmann
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#30 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2018-November-17, 10:30

 hrothgar, on 2018-November-16, 10:45, said:

Got the director called on me at a Nationals for telling LHO

"Listen lady, I am sick of you and your god damn whining. Sit down, shut up, and play a ***** card."

I usually tell people not to talk about calling the TD "on" anyone. In this instance, it seems it might have been appropriate.
Gordon Rainsford
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#31 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-November-17, 12:55

 rhm, on 2018-November-17, 03:32, said:

I agree, but the problem is not 2/1.
The problem is that the range for one bids have increased over the years for natural systems, because opening bids have become lighter and requirements for 2♣ stronger.
Something has to give.
I believe the requirements for 2♣ have become too restrictive. HCP is not the right gauge for unbalanced hands whether to open 2♣ or not
Bridge is a game of probabilities and if you have a hand where you do not want partner to pass 2♣ is often the solution.

I would open



with 2♣ every day of the week and consider 1♠ a serious mis-bid.
This hand will make game unless partner is broke and has a total misfit with you. It is a losing policy to assume that.



This is rubbish, partner can have a perfectly good response and 2 spades with game having only a little play (xx, KQJx, Jxxx, xxx)

Yes he can easily have a hand that will pass opposite 1♠ where you do make game most of the time, ♠Qx and any other 11 cards will do.

I think your hand is really close as to whether you open 1♠ or 2♣.
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#32 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2018-November-18, 04:25

No Gordon

I just respond to the abusive ones. You clearly have never been on the receiving end of some of the behaviour on this place

Maybe you are all so used to it you don't notice. Having hung around this forum and the clubs for six months I know where the obnoxious attitude is. So don't lecture me
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#33 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2018-November-18, 04:25

No Gordon

I just respond to the abusive ones. You clearly have never been on the receiving end of some of the behaviour on this place

Maybe you are all so used to it you don't notice. Having hung around this forum and the clubs for six months I know where the obnoxious attitude is. So don't lecture me

In fact. I may start a thread with all the obnoxious comments and behaviour I have experienced in the last six months from people who should no better.

I could start with all the obnoxious people on this thread but anyone reading can see who they are without being named. Everyone sees their behaviour here and in the clubs but does nothing about it

We've all come up against total bullies and obnoxious people in bridge clubs. Sadly the internet age has attracted all those problem personalities to places like Bridge Base thinking they can get away with abusing and bullying people in the clubs and forum

Everytime I have started a thread it has been ruined by one more people wilfully destroying it through their need to bully or humiliate.

This is a beginner and novice forum. The sort of place to attract bullies. And sure enough they are here in large numbers
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#34 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2018-November-18, 05:58

No Nige

"GordonTD offers good advice to thePossum. Also, honesty and openness are admirable, but to avoid critical comment on posts like this, thePossum should edit out any bidding and play, that he deems irrelevant."

Maybe people who offer gratuitous unrequested advice should stop being so obnoxious and taking every opportunity to attack and humiliate people and only answer the questions asked.

Far too many smartasses who actually think they are good to enough to offer anyone advice

I think this forum and the BBO clubs are due to be cleaned up.

Never saw so much disgusting behaviour and abuse at people
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#35 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2018-November-18, 07:16

 rhm, on 2018-November-17, 03:32, said:

I would open



with 2♣ every day of the week and consider 1♠ a serious mis-bid.
This hand will make game unless partner is broke and has a total misfit with you. It is a losing policy to assume that.

Serious misbid, really? In my 2/1-like system this is still a 1♠ opening :( , but mainly because I believe (or have believed until now that) I tend to get away with it on this kind of hand (~ 21 hcp (the way I count) and 6(331) shape). But maybe I've been fooling myself.

Anyway, here are 100 hands dealt randomly on the condition that South has ♠AKT864 ♥4 ♦AKQ ♣A63:

Spoiler

The hands where I believe North might pass 1♠ if given the chance:

Spoiler

I guess we're mostly interested in the hands where 1♠ might conceivably be passed out:

Spoiler

The same hands with some double dummy results underneath:

   5.
Q                   J 9 7 5             A K T 8 6 4         3 2 
K T 6 5 2           Q J 7               4                   A 9 8 3 
8 4 2               T 9 7 6 5           A K Q               J 3 
T 8 4 2             Q                   A 6 3               K J 9 7 5 

(3N=, 4S-1)

   9.
J 7 5               9                   A K T 8 6 4         Q 3 2 
9 7 5 2             K J 6               4                   A Q T 8 3 
T 5 4 2             9 7 6               A K Q               J 8 3 
T 5                 Q J 9 7 4 2         A 6 3               K 8 

(4S=)

  28.
9                   5                   A K T 8 6 4         Q J 7 3 2 
K 7 2               Q J T 6 5 3         4                   A 9 8 
T 8 7 6 5 3         4 2                 A K Q               J 9 
7 5 2               Q T 8 4             A 6 3               K J 9 

(3N-2, 4S-2, 5D=)

  45.
J 9                 7 5 3 2             A K T 8 6 4         Q 
Q J T 8 6 3         K 7                 4                   A 9 5 2 
5 3                 J T 7               A K Q               9 8 6 4 2 
T 8 7               K 5 4 2             A 6 3               Q J 9 

(3N+1, 4H-1, 4S=)

  56.
J                   9 3 2               A K T 8 6 4         Q 7 5 
T 5 3 2             K Q 9               4                   A J 8 7 6 
9 6 3 2             J 8 7               A K Q               T 5 4 
K J 9 8             Q T 4 2             A 6 3               7 5 

(3N-1, 4S+1)

  57.
-                   Q 7 3               A K T 8 6 4         J 9 5 2 
9 7 6 5             A K T 2             4                   Q J 8 3 
T 9 4 3 2           8 6 5               A K Q               J 7 
Q T 5 4             J 8 2               A 6 3               K 9 7 

(3N-1, 4S-1, 5D=)

  59.
3 2                 Q J 9 5             A K T 8 6 4         7 
Q 7                 T 9 6 5             4                   A K J 8 3 2 
J T 9 8 7           6 5                 A K Q               4 3 2 
J T 8 5             K Q 2               A 6 3               9 7 4 

(4S-2, 5D-1)

  75.
7 2                 9 5                 A K T 8 6 4         Q J 3 
J 7 6 3             A K 5               4                   Q T 9 8 2 
T 6 4               9 8 5 3 2           A K Q               J 7 
J 9 7 4             K T 5               A 6 3               Q 8 2 

(3N(S)-3,3N(N)-2, 4S-1)

  77.
7 2                 9 5                 A K T 8 6 4         Q J 3 
J 5 3 2             Q T 9 8 6           4                   A K 7 
J 6 5 4             9 3                 A K Q               T 8 7 2 
9 8 7               J T 4 2             A 6 3               K Q 5 

(4S-1)

  90.
9                   7 3                 A K T 8 6 4         Q J 5 2 
3 2                 K Q J 9 8 5         4                   A T 7 6 
J T 9 8 7 4         6 3                 A K Q               5 2 
9 8 7 5             J 4 2               A 6 3               K Q T 

(3N-3, 4S-2, 6D=)

  99.
7                   Q 9 5               A K T 8 6 4         J 3 2 
J T 6               9 8 7 3 2           4                   A K Q 5 
T 6 5 4             J 9 7 3             A K Q               8 2 
Q J 8 7 4           T                   A 6 3               K 9 5 2 

(3N-2, 4S=, 5C=)

So opening 2♣ is potentially a big winner on 8 of these 11 hands. But how would you reach the makeable games (and maybe even the one slam!) after a 2♣ opening, Rainer?
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#36 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-November-18, 07:27

A few things:

1. don't result, this is not a terrible slam, a heart lead beats it out of hand, but on a club lead which is quite likely on the auction, barring a miracle QJ stiff you need spades 3-2 and the person with 3 spades to have 3 or more diamonds. Here it's utterly doomed

2. GordonTD as well as being a very senior TD, is also a really nice guy and is offering his advice for the right reasons, sometimes if you feel everybody else is off the planet it's not them.

3. A lot of decent players have contributed to your threads, your attitude towards much better players does not encourage them to try to help you.

4. Judging by what we've seen, you will improve your scores far more by focusing on your cardplay at the moment, and your defence which is usually the weakest area of beginner bridge.

As people have pointed out the opening bid issue is nothing to do with 2/1, just affects any system that only has one strong 2 bid. Over 1♠ it's largely irrelevant, but over say 1♣-1♥/♠ it's more awkward for a strong notrump system than for weak (you can use a 2N rebid as we do for a near 2♣ opener playing weak by extendng the 1N rebid, you need it for 18-19 bal playing strong).
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#37 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2018-November-18, 09:08

You seem to take any answer that runs counter to your opinion as abusive, an insult and an attempt to humiliate by people not smart enough to offer you advice. If you only want to hear your opinion echoed back to you and agreement with your wisdom, don't publish in a public forum. Don't ask questions if you will declare answers you don't like as an attack.

We are trying to directly answer your questions and offer sound bridge advice. I don't see why you consider it humiliating; all of us were novices at some point. You might want to be more humble about your knowledge of the game and take contrary opinions under advisement. Many of us have played and studied bridge for a ton longer than you have, at fairly high levels.

If you already know everything and want no contradictory opinions because those insult you, please leave. You aren't learning and you aren't educating anyone.
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#38 User is offline   akwoo 

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Posted 2018-November-18, 17:25

My requirements for 2♣ opener is 22+ balanced, or 8.5 playing tricks in a major or 9 playing tricks in a minor.

I think
♠ AKxxxx
♥ x
♦ AKQ
♣ Axx

certainly has 8.5 playing tricks.

Now I generally play systems that let me get out at 3♠ if partner has nothing.

The problem with playing strong 2's is that the losses are generally invisible to you. Opponents bid a slam that the rest of the field misses. You think you were just unlucky. Other opponents do it again. You think you were unlucky again. But, actually, you weren't unlucky; they found the slams because you couldn't open a weak 2 and jam their bidding.
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#39 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2018-November-20, 15:53

 Cyberyeti, on 2018-November-17, 12:55, said:

This is rubbish, partner can have a perfectly good response and 2 spades with game having only a little play (xx, KQJx, Jxxx, xxx)

Yes he can easily have a hand that will pass opposite 1♠ where you do make game most of the time, ♠Qx and any other 11 cards will do.

I think your hand is really close as to whether you open 1♠ or 2♣.

This has nothing to do with the question whether you might go down in game or not.
I go down in game often enough when I do not open 2♣
Some people like you seem to think when you open 2♣ game must be underwritten by Llyods.
It is this attitude which is anything but optimal.
Game is odds on even if partner might pass 1♠.
That infrequent hands can be constructed, where game is poor, is irrelevant.
Slam is very hard to bid with confidence when you open 1♠ with such hands, because responder will rarely cooperate and opener will often bid poor slams because he tries to catch up after opening with a non forcing bid.
Try bidding slam when responder holds for example 4♠4♥4♦1♣ and a near yarborough when you open 1♠.
Nothing is close about this hand.

Rainer Herrmann
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#40 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2018-November-21, 12:16

 rhm, on 2018-November-20, 15:53, said:

This has nothing to do with the question whether you might go down in game or not.
I go down in game often enough when I do not open 2♣
Some people like you seem to think when you open 2♣ game must be underwritten by Llyods.
It is this attitude which is anything but optimal.
Game is odds on even if partner might pass 1♠.
That infrequent hands can be constructed, where game is poor, is irrelevant.

I know that was a response to Cyberyeti, but did you read my post?

 rhm, on 2018-November-20, 15:53, said:

Slam is very hard to bid with confidence when you open 1♠ with such hands, because responder will rarely cooperate and opener will often bid poor slams because he tries to catch up after opening with a non forcing bid.
Try bidding slam when responder holds for example 4♠4♥4♦1♣ and a near yarborough when you open 1♠.
Nothing is close about this hand.

You said upthread that bridge is a game of probabilities. Yet you use the fact that partner might have a 4441 near-yarborough as proof that the choice between 1♠ and 2♣ is not close! (Of course, opening 2♣ fails miserably opposite a more probable 1444 near-yarborough, but I won't hold that against you. :))
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