[thepossum]

Dear all

I was brought up on standard Blackwood but have started playing RKC since it seems most common now and the extra information at 5 level is clearly superior. However recently in a H slam the next bid of 5NT gave me the response of 6S. Is this not problematic or would the asker already know that the KS was enough for 7.

That's the level I'm not 100% clear on with usage and giving specific kings rather than count.

Regards
Possum

[The_Badger]

As soon as you bid 5NT you announce to partner that you have all key cards 4 aces and the king of trumps between the two hands, and 5NT asks for a specific king. (You probably have also announced to partner that you hold the trump queen indirectly, too, or enough length in the trump suit to drop the Q by bidding 5NT)

It's exactly the same (without asking for a specific king) as Standard Blackwood. You don't bid 5NT missing a keycard - in Standard Blackwood's case, an ace.

Obviously, if the ♠K response is not what you are looking for and pushes you into the wrong contract, then you shouldn't bid 5NT.

[smerriman]

 The_Badger, on 2018-October-21, 01:15, said:

Obviously, if the ♠K response is not what you are looking for and pushes you into the wrong contract, then you shouldn't bid 5NT.

Normally 5NT would ask you to bid a specific king below the trump suit. In most cases if I just had the king of spades I'd bid 6♥..

[nullve]

 smerriman, on 2018-October-21, 02:13, said:

Normally 5NT would ask you to bid a specific king below the trump suit. In most cases if I just had the king of spades I'd bid 6♥..

And then partner might be able to infer that you had the ♠K anyway.

[pescetom]

 smerriman, on 2018-October-21, 02:13, said:

Normally 5NT would ask you to bid a specific king below the trump suit. In most cases if I just had the king of spades I'd bid 6♥..

This is one of several possible partnership agreements. My suggestion is to not show the K♠ when trumps are ♥ but to show any K when trumps are ♣ or ♦. But the really important thing is that partner is on the same wavelength.

[HardVector]

 nullve, on 2018-October-21, 03:10, said:

And then partner might be able to infer that you had the ♠K anyway.

After you've gotten keycard Blackwood down, if this kind of situation concerns you, look up kickback.

[thepossum]

Dear all

Thanks for all the advice

Regards P

[thepossum]

PS

Anyway 7H made

[mikeh]

Kickback is a bit beyond novice or beginner bridge but the OP identified a problem for specific king ask in ordinary keycard. Kickback solves this. 4S is keycard in hearts and so 5S asks for kings. 6H shows no kings, while 5N shows the spade King.

[pescetom]

 mikeh, on 2018-October-22, 06:10, said:

Kickback is a bit beyond novice or beginner bridge but the OP identified a problem for specific king ask in ordinary keycard. Kickback solves this. 4S is keycard in hearts and so 5S asks for kings. 6H shows no kings, while 5N shows the spade King.

In general, Hearts as trumps with standard RKC agreements is a SNAFU situation. But Kickback without detailed agreements and a lot of practice is even worse. As a novice/intermediate you can improve the Hearts situation a bit by replying 1403 (at least for this suit) and by not showing the K♠.

[thepossum]

Dear all

Sorry, Ive been trying to find the hand this morning to post it but it seems to have disappeared from database today I did check it the other day and the KS was specifically required for 7H since there were two S losers. It was GIB asking and I wasnt sure what to do but I ended up giving 6S response and 7H made easily. Maybe 6NT was an escape route. don't know how good GIB is at planning that. Everyone else bid 6H. Sounds as if I was lucky but I felt the 7H was worth a shot from my knowledge of the auction and my hand with AK of S and something else, all the missing mid-high hearts, and a singleton. I know it should be the asker who makes those decisions but surely if GIB asks 5NT and 6S is a legitimate response according to GIB then it was an ok bid.

thanks all
Possum

[smerriman]

---

While 6♠ has a definition it doesn't make any sense to bid it; if you think grand is on you just bid it directly. (5NT doesn't just ask for kings, it confirms you have all of the keycards and says to bid grand yourself if you have an extra source of tricks).

You could easily have a spade loser here so 7♥ seems a bit lucky. 6♥ is defined in GIBs system as "no king (below hearts)", so that would be the normal bid.

(In real life, North shouldn't be bidding Blackwood. GIB is very bad at knowing how to cuebid.)

Edit - actually, I guess you can't have a spade loser or GIB would have raised spades.

[thepossum]

Hi

Thanks for finding the hand. My memory of it wasnt 100%.

However for me bridge is sometimes about having a go, working on gut feel (not just rules), and sometimes getting an edge bidding a contract nobody else does. Its not just about everyone bidding he same contract and reducing it to just a playing game. Its a bidding and playing game. Much of the fun of it is bidding contracts that nobody else gets. I'm prepared to go down on contracts rather than miss the excitement of the occasional grand that nobody else gets. Somebody recently bid and made 6S against me. They had no real right to bid it and nobody else bid it. Only one other table even ended in spades, 4+2. However I congratulated them and wasnt upset by their bids. Some people seem to get upset about things like that

regards P

[pescetom]

 thepossum, on 2018-October-22, 19:03, said:

I'm prepared to go down on contracts rather than miss the excitement of the occasional grand that nobody else gets. Somebody recently bid and made 6S against me. They had no real right to bid it and nobody else bid it. Only one other table even ended in spades, 4+2. However I congratulated them and wasnt upset by their bids. Some people seem to get upset about things like that

We all love making slams and it would be absurd to get upset if opponents do the same. But I wouldn't congratulate them if they were just lucky, except maybe sardonically if they are friends. To earn my congratulations they have to bid well, or make up for it with inspired play.

[thepossum]

 pescetom, on 2018-October-23, 08:26, said:

We all love making slams and it would be absurd to get upset if opponents do the same. But I wouldn't congratulate them if they were just lucky, except maybe sardonically if they are friends. To earn my congratulations they have to bid well, or make up for it with inspired play.

Yes, maybe but surely it depends if you are beginner or advanced. And I dont regard it as lucky if the slam is there. Its not all about percentages

[pescetom]

 thepossum, on 2018-October-23, 19:46, said:

Yes, maybe but surely it depends if you are beginner or advanced.

Sure, one has to take into account the level of opponents too - I would congratulate beginners for whatever they got right, and certainly for realising that a slam was possible.

 thepossum, on 2018-October-23, 19:46, said:

And I dont regard it as lucky if the slam is there. Its not all about percentages

It's all about scores versus risks which depends upon percentages, but there are many of them and you can rarely weigh them all precisely: so you need a good dose of fuzzy logic, plus an effective set of bidding tools to discover the percentages in the first place. But of course a slam can "be there" merely by luck. The question is rather how likely it is to be there, how sure you are of this, and whether those odds are acceptable. If advanced opponents bid a slam with an 8-card trump fit lacking one Ace and the Queen of trumps then they get no congratulations from me, whether it makes or not. And I would apologise for my own luck if I was able to set a reasonable slam because I held all the outstanding trumps, or whatever.