[johnu]

 Tramticket, on 2018-October-05, 01:49, said:

You have so far found out that partner has at least five clubs headed by the AKQ and four spades headed by the king.

Counting tricks you can picture five+ clubs, three red cards, Ace / king of spades, two spade ruffs, giving a certain twelve tricks. If partner holds a six-card club suit you will take six club tricks, bringing your total to 13. Partner is very likely to hold a six-card suit and if she doesn't she might have help elsewhere (e.g. the queen of diamonds).

Do you bid seven?

Did opener's 1♠ rebid guarantee an unbalanced hand? Assuming that to be the case, there's the question of cue bidding. You seem to have assumed 4♠ was a cue bid showing ♠K. Would opener cue bid a singleton (or void) in the red suits? Probably would have cue bid shortness in hearts, but maybe not in diamonds since that is responder's real suit(???).

Bidding a grand seems like an odds against gamble. You could always bid 5NT as a general grand slam try.

[Tramticket]

 mikeh, on 2018-October-05, 13:53, said:

In most club duplicates, the typical pair is terrified of the minor suits, and scuttles into 3N on any possible justification.

Often true, but in defence of the pairs at our club, the majority did reach a club slam and you would need to get to 7 to get the other 30% of the match points.

Partner's hand was K985 62 3 AKQ1062. Zero match points to the one pair who tried 6NT.

[Cyberyeti]

 Tramticket, on 2018-October-05, 15:58, said:

Often true, but in defence of the pairs at our club, the majority did reach a club slam and you would need to get to 7 to get the other 30% of the match points.

Partner's hand was K985 62 3 AKQ1062. Zero match points to the one pair who tried 6NT.

I guess the spade finesse didn't work

[msjennifer]

Sirs,pardon me as I saw this problem post too late and the hand was already exposed.I was thinking of the very hand with partner I.e.Kxxx xx x AKQxxx,To bid a confident grand as per the biding given Ishall need tha SQ also with the opener and if he has not then there is no way one can find out If has DQ .I f he does not have that too then one shall be forced to play in 6 NT as the bidding has already gone beyond 6C.Opener has already denied the heart King and DK Hence a bid of 5NT ,when using the Spiral shall enquire about the SQ.When Opener bids6C to deny it then its the end and will go Pass Pass Pass.

[Cyberyeti]

It's a difficult hand for what I outlined, Q♠ or Q♦ I can find, but opener needs to work out whether the 6th club is enough to bid the grand over 5N, is the sort of decision that will vary with state of the match, day of the week etc.

[dsLawsd]

If you play a weak NT structure, then I call 7♣ otherwise my choice is also 5 NT. I wonder what Zia would do...
Great discussion on the uncertainty with high level after 4th suit forcing to game!

[Cyberyeti]

 dsLawsd, on 2018-October-06, 02:35, said:

If you play a weak NT structure, then I call 7♣ otherwise my choice is also 5 NT. I wonder what Zia would do...
Great discussion on the uncertainty with high level after 4th suit forcing to game!

Can you distinguish between Kxxx, Qx, xx/Jx, AKQxx and the actual hand ?

[nekthen]

It seems partner has shown his sixth spade in his mind, so 5N is not going to get a positive response. I like the idea that the impossible 3♥ is the default bid. Fortunately, I play xyz, as suggested before, so the bidding goes

---

2♦ is GF and 2♥ would be “nothing to say”, so 3♣ is definitely 6 cards

[maartenxq]

 Tramticket, on 2018-October-05, 01:49, said:

Partner is very likely to hold a six-card suit and if she doesn't she might have help elsewhere (e.g. the queen of diamonds).

Do you bid seven?

That's why you bid first 5 nt: grand slam try, all first controls present. Partner bids 7 with extras. If she bids 6 now discipline dictates pass. If you feel lucky you go ahead.

Maarten Baltussen

[msjennifer]

 maartenxq, on 2018-October-06, 06:19, said:

That's why you bid first 5 nt: grand slam try, all first controls present. Partner bids 7 with extras. If she bids 6 now discipline dictates pass. If you feel lucky you go ahead.

Maarten Baltussen

SIR,what is the definition of "EXTRAS"?.If opener has HQJ10 ,that's also an undisclosed "'EXTRAS".

[paulg]

 msjennifer, on 2018-October-06, 23:16, said:

SIR,what is the definition of "EXTRAS"?.If opener has HQJ10 ,that's also an undisclosed "'EXTRAS".

It is unlikely that you'd hold ♥QJ10 unless you have six clubs, since you would have rebid 2NT over fourth-suit if your distribution was precisely 4315 with a heart stop.

However the question of extras, and which one is important, is never an easy one and generally depends on the precise auction. The person asking knows and just hopes that it is clear to responder!

[msjennifer]

 paulg, on 2018-October-07, 01:00, said:

It is unlikely that you'd hold ♥QJ10 unless you have six clubs, since you would have rebid 2NT over fourth-suit if your distribution was precisely 4315 with a heart stop.

However the question of extras, and which one is important, is never an easy one and generally depends on the precise auction. The person asking knows and just hopes that it is clear to responder!

Sir,I agree fully.Frankly speaking, I just overlooked the 2NT rebid which was not made , in an unpardonable oversight.THANKS for pointing that.

[miamijd]

I assume that if you bid 5NT, partner is either going to bid 6C or 7C. Bidding a King above the trump suit is quite odd.

5NT will at least allow you to reach the grand if partner has 6 clubs. From partner's perspective, he knows you have the three missing Aces and four clubs. Likely you have only 2 spades. Also, it's likely you have a red King; otherwise, where is your strength for the slam? So partner can count two spades, three red tricks, and two spade ruffs for seven. Six clubs will make 13. Partner won't be able to go to slam with the Qs or Qd, but at least you'll reach the grand when he has 6 clubs.

Cheers,
mike

[Cyberyeti]

 miamijd, on 2018-October-07, 21:08, said:

I assume that if you bid 5NT, partner is either going to bid 6C or 7C. Bidding a King above the trump suit is quite odd.

Depends on methods, we WILL go beyond 6♣ but because of using kickback rather than blackwood, we will most likely have had other options, and 5N says "tell me something I don't already know about that I couldn't have otherwise asked for". I've given an indication that ducking out in 6N is an option if you give extras that weren't the ones I wanted.

Nobody's bidding a K above the trump suit, you denied holding a red K when you bid 4♠, basically 5N says we have all the aces, I know you have Kxxx/AKQxx do you have anything else ? Partner's hand would be pretty typical for this, so Q♦/Q♠ are easy to show now, whether the 6th club is sufficient on its own is unclear but probably, it's just possible partner has ♠Axx but not that likely.

[Tramticket]

 miamijd, on 2018-October-07, 21:08, said:

5NT will at least allow you to reach the grand if partner has 6 clubs. From partner's perspective, he knows you have the three missing Aces and four clubs. Likely you have only 2 spades. Also, it's likely you have a red King; otherwise, where is your strength for the slam? So partner can count two spades, three red tricks, and two spade ruffs for seven. Six clubs will make 13. Partner won't be able to go to slam with the Qs or Qd, but at least you'll reach the grand when he has 6 clubs.

Yes, this is all good sense, but partner might not bid the grand even when holding a six-card club suit if she thinks that she has already shown the sixth club in response to the 4th suit forcing bid. Mike, Do you have a view about the current expert response structure to 4SF? What would be the default bid?

[Trinidad]

Just my two cents on responding to 4SF:

There are 6 cases that I need to show:

• 3 cards for partner
  
• a stop for NT
  
• extra length in my first suit
  
• extra length in my second suit
  
• four cards in the fourth suit
  
• I have none of the above

Unfortunately, we have only 5 bids available, if we don't consider jump bids. That means something needs to give in.

For me, the priorities lie with what partner most likely wants to know: showing support for partner and showing a stopper for NT. If I have either of them, I will show them up-the-line. I don't want to mess with those, so these bids can be relied on.

If I have four cards in the 4th suit I will show them, but I may show them as a stop when I am minimum (and conceivably even as "nothing to show"). So, a raise of the fourth suit is also reliable. (It 'd better be, since it is "expensive".)

That leaves the 2 rebids of my own suit for the remaining 3 cases. For me, out of those two bids, the cheaper one includes "nothing to show".
This means that the "nothing to show" always is the cheapest rebid of one of my own suits.

On this auction that would be 2♠. But if responder's red suits were reversed (with hearts as his suit and diamonds the fourth), it is also 2♠, despite the fact that 2♥ would be cheaper. This means that 2♥ can be trusted to show three cards.

Rik