[wank]

hi i've always been a fan of a lot of your thoeretical contributions and i've played this method before. now i'm playing a system the relevant parts of which are flannery, no KI and invitational jumps . considering responder's showing 5 spades, opener's not going to have 4S in a minimum hand and responder can't have 6 spades invitational this frees up a rebid after 1h-1s.

i was thinking of 1H-1S-2D being 1) a total minimum with 6 hearts or 2) 3 spades with (sub gazilli) extras. 2H is then a weak pass/correct and 2S some kind of strong relay. 2NT is invitational opposite the total minimum heart hand, something like a misfitting 13.

2H would be a solid opening bid, something like a good 13-15

2S would be 3 spades with a minimum

the only problem with this is that responder has to bid 2H pass or correct on hands where he'd like to bid 2S to play, i.e 6+-0 or 6+-1 in the majors.

alternatives would seem to include splitting the spade raises by shape instead of min/max or reordering the heart hands. any opinions?

i can't think of any pertinent effects for 1h-1s-1nt auctions but i might be wrong.

[awm]

 wank, on 2017-May-28, 19:53, said:

hi i've always been a fan of a lot of your thoeretical contributions and i've played this method before. now i'm playing a system the relevant parts of which are flannery, no KI and invitational jumps . considering responder's showing 5 spades, opener's not going to have 4S in a minimum hand and responder can't have 6 spades invitational this frees up a rebid after 1h-1s.

i was thinking of 1H-1S-2D being 1) a total minimum with 6 hearts or 2) 3 spades with (sub gazilli) extras. 2H is then a weak pass/correct and 2S some kind of strong relay. 2NT is invitational opposite the total minimum heart hand, something like a misfitting 13.

2H would be a solid opening bid, something like a good 13-15

2S would be 3 spades with a minimum

the only problem with this is that responder has to bid 2H pass or correct on hands where he'd like to bid 2S to play, i.e 6+-0 or 6+-1 in the majors.

alternatives would seem to include splitting the spade raises by shape instead of min/max. any opinions?

My suggestion would be to give up on using 2♠ as a relay. You can probably narrow the "minimum heart hand" enough that you don't really need an invite there and use 2NT as a relay instead. Even if you need 2NT as natural, a 3♣ relay could work (esp. since you can safely go past 3NT with the 3♠-extras type opposite the relay, since an 8+ spade fit is guaranteed and you will be at least in the marginal slam zone). Alternatively you could just go with natural bidding on the GF hands, something like:

3m = natural and GF (maybe 3 in some situations)
... 3♥ = min 6♥ not very strong in other minor
... 3NT = min 6♥ strong in other minor
... 3♠ = setting the suit, likely semi-balanced
... om = semi-natural with 3♠, shortage in responder's minor
... 4m = 3♠ but also 4m, offering two-suit agreement for slam possibilities
3♥ = 2+♥ and GF
... 3♠ = 3-card fit, agreeing spade
... 3NT = spade cue with very min heart hand
... 4m = cue for hearts
3♠ = sets spades, GF

[steve2005]

What do you do with minimum hands and 5♥5♦ or 1♠5♥4♦?

[wank]

 steve2005, on 2017-May-28, 21:02, said:

What do you do with minimum hands and 5♥5♦ or 1♠5♥4♦?

1nt is either strong, diamonds or 2533, so a sort of gazzilli (then the positives bid 2C allowing opener to rebid 2D limited, natural, and the negatives give preference between diamonds and hearts. it works pretty well imo). if you're playing 1H-1S as 5 as in flannery with no KI, it would be a big waste to play 1h-1s-1NT as natural, i.e. 2533 so this is a perfect environment for the awm method. perhaps awm can post the link to the original thread about it. i think he calls it zirconia (a fake diamond).

[Kungsgeten]

I like the idea of having two spade raises. I would probably have one of them be balanced and the other unbalanced, but not sure if that's best. We've enjoyed Ulf Nilsson's idea of playing 1M-1X; 2C as 6+M and 1M-1X; 2M as clubs, which helps narrow down opener's range with 6+M. I like your idea of 2D as a potential minimum with 6+M though.

Here's an idea:

1H-1S;
1NT = Zirconia Gazzilli
2C = 6+H, 11-16
2D = 3S, unbal 11-15
2H = 4+C, 11-15
2S = 3S bal

Over 2C reaponder can rebid 2D with at least mild INV values, or bid 2M to play. Over the relay opener bids his major with min, bids 2S with a 6-4 (2NT asks) and some extras, bids 3m with shortness and some extras, 2NT with a NT-looking hand and extras (but non-forcing), 3NT same hand but max, 3H extras but NF doesn't want to show shortness.

Over the 2D unbalanced raise responder could relay with 2H to ask min/max and shortness, still being able to stop in 2S if opener is min.

[wank]

 Kungsgeten, on 2017-May-30, 00:30, said:

Over the 2D unbalanced raise responder could relay with 2H to ask min/max and shortness, still being able to stop in 2S if opener is min.

i did do this before, but only for 1 event and it never came up, so dunno why i discarded it. edit: oh yes i do. that was before i played flannery so 2S was a 4 card raise.

[Kungsgeten]

We do not play Flannery, so the 2D rebid show 3 and 2S four. Over 2D we use 2H as natural non-forcing though, since my partner much prefer 5-2 fits (could even be 6-2) over 4-3.

[spotlight7]

Perhaps you could play 1H-1S-1N natural and 1H-1S-2C* as the

Gazzilli version showing either 6+ H or 5H and 4+ clubs


If you do that, you can use 1H-1S-2D* as

a 3S raise @11-13 and ...1S-2H* as a 3S raise 14-15.

[spotlight7]

What do you use 1H-2S for?


I play(in a Precision framework) 1H-1S-any-2S* as a 6+S invite type hand.

1H-2S as 6+ Ss with less than an invite.


If opener is not bidding game, stopping in 2Ss has advantages.

[wank]

1h-2s we play as a natural invitational

[nullve]

What nullve-nullve have played for a while:

1♥ = "10-21, 5+ H, unBAL"
...1♠ = "5+, 4+ S"
...(...)
...2♠ = "5-7", 6S2-H"
...(...)

1♥-1♠; ?:

1N = "10-12", 3-S5H OR "16-18"
2♣ = "13-15", 3-S5H (=> 2♦ = P/C (=> P = 2-S4+D; 2♥ = 2-S3-D4+C; 2♠ = 3 S); 2N = GF relay)
2♦ = "13-15", either 6+ H or 4+ S (=> 2♥ = P/C; 2N = GF relay)
2♥ = "10-12", 2-S6+H (=> 2N = GF relay)
2♠ = "10-12", 4+ S (=> 2N = GF relay)
2N+ = "19-21", relay structure

The things I've tried after 1♥-1♠; 1N have so far been based on either

2♣ = "8+, relay" (=> 2♦ = "10-12", 2-S4+D; 2♥ = "10-12", 2-S3-D4+C; 2♠ = "10-12", 3 S; 2N+ = relay structure)
2♦ = "5-7", usually 5-S1-H3+D (=> P/2♥+ = NAT)

or

2♣ = "5-7", usually 5-S1-H3+C (=> P/2♦+ = NAT)
2♦ = "8+, relay" (=> 2♥ = "10-12", 2- S; 2♠ = "10-12", 3 S; 2N+ = "16-18", relay structure),

but maybe

1♥-1♠; 1N-?:

2♣ = "8+, relay"
...2♦ = "10-12", 2-S4+D (=> 2♠ = "8-12", 5S1-H2-D; 2N = GF relay)
...2♥ = "10-12", 2-S3-D4+C (=> 2♠ = "8-12", 5S1-H; 2N = GF relay; 3♣ = to play)
...2♠ = "10-12", 3 S (=> 2N = GF relay)
...2N+ = "16-18", relay structure
2♦ = "5-7", 5-S1-H3+D
...P = "10-12", 2-S4+D OR 16-18, 1543/2542¹
...2♥ = "10-12", 2S3-D4+C OR "16-18", not 1543/2542¹
......2♠+: similar to 2♠+ over 1♥-1♠; 2♣ in "classic" Gazzilli. I.e.
......2♠ = 5 S
.........P = 2 S
.........2N+ = "16-18", NAT. So, in my mind,
.........2N = "16-18", usually 1534 (=> 3♦ = 5+ D (expecting 1534) (=> 3♥ = 1624, bad hearts?))
.........3♣ = "16-18", 5+C, usually 1- S
.........3♦ = "16-18", 5+D, usually 1- S
.........3♥ = "16-18", 6(+)H4-D4-C, usually 1- S
.........3♠ = "16-18", 3 S
.........(...)
......2N = 4S1-H5+D3C
......3♣ = 4S1-H3+D4+C
......3♦ = 4S1-H6+D2-C
...2♠ = "10-12", 3 S
...2N = 10-12, 1534
...3♣ = "10-12", 1-S5H5C
...(...)
2♥ = "5-7", 5-S2H
2♠ = "8-10", 6S2-H
2N = "5-7", 5S1-H2-D5+C
3♣ = "5-7", 4S1-H2-D6+C
(...)

¹ The point is to avoid problems after 1♥-1♠; 1N-2♦; 2♥-2♠ (with 1543) and 1♥-1♠; 1N-2♦; 2♥-3♣ (with both 1543 and 2542).

?

This post has been edited by nullve: 2019-March-04, 15:42