[JLilly]

When playing SAYC or 2/1 or something similar, when should an overcaller with a 5-card hearts suit and 15+ HCPs overcall their RHO's with 2♥, 1NT, or X?

Presumably, holding <2 spades (except maybe the singleton A♠) disqualifies 1NT. And if the overcaller's hearts suit is something like AKQxx or AKJTx, it can be treated as a six-card suit for many purposes and it should be shown. But what about some middle-of-the-road case like

♠QJx
♥AQTxx
♦Ax
♣KT9

?

Now remove a spade and put it in D or C -- how does that change things? Make the S holding KQ or Ax and reduce points in the minors compensatorily?

Thanks all, and happy new year.

[Kaitlyn S]

Let's get the double out of the way first. Double is a takeout double showing support for all three unbid suits. If you plan to double and then correct your partner's minor suit bid to hearts, you are showing about 19 points counting length (18 HCP) and a decent suit. So if you have 18 or more points and 5 or more hearts, you would virtually always start with "double" and then correct to hearts unless your hand was highly suitable for notrump as opposed to hearts after the spade bid (something like: S-KJ9 H-J8754 D-AKJ C-AQ.)

If your hand isn't that good and you have five hearts, you probably wouldn't double. (You might prefer a takeout double to 2H on something like S-3 H-65432 D-AKJ5 C-AKJ.) I think with this strong a hand, it has to be almost this extreme to double. You might double with better hearts and a minimum opener (S-3 H-K9765 D-AQ62 C-K54) considering the safety of playing in partner's longest suit a higher priority as your heart suit isn't good enough to overcall at the two level without extra values. But with a better hand (S-3 H-K9765 D-AQ62 C-AQ5) you are less concerned about safety and more concerned about getting to the right game which is likely to be a 5-3 heart fit if one exists. So with 15-17 and five hearts you would almost never double.

Now, what about overcalling 1NT? Again, the most likely game is usually the 5-3 heart fit if one exists and you aren't finding it if you overcall 1NT. So I would need a reason to think that notrump was going to play better than hearts if we have game. (A secondary reason to overcall 1NT is that you think you might be more likely to make 1NT than 2H if you're passed out.)

Oddly enough, the best example I can give you for a 1NT overcall with five hearts isn't even a balanced hand!

S- QJ108 H-A10754 D-AQ C-K6

Ruffing in dummy is unlikely to help you this hand and on the expected spade lead, 3NT is probably more likely to make than 4H. The fact that the opponents might get a spade ruff helps in the decision also. If partner has four hearts, he can bid Stayman, and if he eschews Stayman with 3-4-3-3, I'll be happy to avoid the almost certain spade ruffs.

However, this example is rather extreme and I would tend to choose the 2H overcall unless my hearts were weak and the spades were double stopped.

I am admittedly not an expert and while I believe the advice I have given is sound, it is possible that some experts might not agree.

[JLilly]

That's helpful -- thanks, Kaitlyn

[nullve]

Kaitlyn S, on 2017-January-01, 23:01, said:

Again, the most likely game is usually the 5-3 heart fit if one exists and you aren't finding it if you overcall 1NT.

Why?

[ggwhiz]

I tend to overcall 1nt more often than bidding 2♥ and double is not in the picture.

Once in a blue moon we play 1nt with a 9 card heart fit but at least as often as a 5-3 heart fit is better than notrump, it's the same number of tricks if we have game, maybe a bit of a loser (but small) when we end up in partscore.

The advantage is encouraging partner to compete should lho say, bid 2♠ or bid with a long minor suit and modest to few values. I think I come out ahead overall but by no means by a whole bunch and a big reason is my partner who will compete aggressively on shape and bupkas.

♠KQ is a particularly poor holding for notrump with ♠Ax right behind it and a control rich hand often plays better in a suit contract so 2♥ for me on those ones

[Kaitlyn S]

nullve, on 2017-January-14, 10:32, said:

Why?

Unlike most notrump/suit decisions, in this case the opponents already know what the likely best lead for their side is, which is more important in notrump.

If the overcaller has a single stopper in spades, it's very likely it's going to get knocked out with the opening lead, and unless dummy has a solid second stopper, any minor high spades in dummy simply get finessed at T1. RHO has five spades AND most of the opposing strength for the side, so unless you have nine running tricks or enough running tricks to squeeze RHO, you don't make 3NT.

[Zelandakh]

Kaitlyn S, on 2017-January-14, 11:21, said:

Unlike most notrump/suit decisions...

The question asked was why the pair would be unable to find their 5-3 major fit, not why a NT contract might not make. Many pairs play "system on" after a 1NT overcall and that may well include a form of Puppet.

[mycroft]

Which is fine if you have a GF hand. But you do tend to sink the 5-3 partscores. Is that important? No more than any other 1NT vs 1M decision, I guess.

[Zelandakh]

mycroft, on 2017-January-16, 10:33, said:

Which is fine if you have a GF hand. But you do tend to sink the 5-3 partscores. Is that important? No more than any other 1NT vs 1M decision, I guess.

There are different forms of Puppet available. For pairs that play 2♣ as Puppet rather than 2NT or 3♣, GF values are not necessarily required. Admittedly, the 3♣ version is by far the most popular and is probably also the better choice after an overcall.

[Vampyr]

Zelandakh, on 2017-January-16, 18:51, said:

There are different forms of Puppet available. For pairs that play 2♣ as Puppet rather than 2NT or 3♣, GF values are not necessarily required. Admittedly, the 3♣ version is by far the most popular and is probably also the better choice after an overcall.

We play 3♣ as simple 5-card Stayman over our weak NT. It is possibly a good idea to play some type of Puppet Stayman over NT overcalls, since here rightsiding might matter.

[mycroft]

I've played 2♣ Puppet as well. It is difficult to play that, especially in a strong NT situation, with "runout Stayman", although I will admit it is possible. "Runout Stayman" will come up a fair bit after 1x-1NT.

Swings, roundabouts, decide which hands you're going to take your beats on. As someone who plays Keri/weak NT and NTO for takeout, I definitely have some hands that are "boring simple" for most pairs that are torture/system loss for us.