[Jinksy]

---

IMP scoring. You've agreed that over a weak NT you'll keep your bids comparatively sound (with no specific agreement about what that means).

One more for the road?

[MrAce]

NO!

3♥ says you found a 4-4 fit. Not an invitation. Pd should have gone through 2 NT with 4 trumps and better hand.

[rmnka447]

All your points are in front of the opponents' "strong" hand and need to be devalued some. Pass.

[Kaitlyn S]

If you've shown sound values, you can't have much less. I presume your agreement is 3H invitational since you wouldn't be asking the question otherwise. Pass.

[eagles123]

no way we are total minimum - this feels like a ruling question to me

[Zelandakh]

MrAce, on 2016-October-28, 18:26, said:

NO!

3♥ says you found a 4-4 fit. Not an invitation. Pd should have gone through 2 NT with 4 trumps and better hand.

Some prefer to begin their relays with 2♦ to maximise the information exchange but the effect is the same. That is even before we get to Overcaller's hand being an absolute minimum for "sound values" over a weak NT. Agree with the assessment that the full story will probably feature a BIT or other UI from second hand.

[StevenG]

Well, I like this hand after the jump, so I would accept. (I seem to be in a minority of one again.) Landy limits what West can bid over 1NT and a lot of pretty good hands (that would bid if playing something Astro-ish) don't have any other option than to pass. I'm assuming that this is a casual partnership, else Jinksy would have zillions of complicated agreements, and casual partnerships don't usually have detailed agreements (actually, they usually don't have any agreements at all) about how to proceed over Landy, so I'm discounting any negative inferences.

[apollo1201]

Do I have much more than promised? Not that much it seems from OP.
Are my HCP prime and need upgrade? Hell no (stiff Q, aceless, lack of concentration in H).
Does my shape compensate? Not that much (ok I could be 5422, but partner hit my 4-cd suit).
Does partner seem to have extras? I guess he could have bid 2NT or some kind of relays, so he probably has some "nice" 8-10 with 4 hearts.
Am I red at IMPs? Yes, but this time it won't be enough, sorry...

[Jinksy]

Non-casual, but we play everything (apart from 2♦) after 2♣ as natural. So this is just an invite.

(Why would you need 3♥ to be preemptive here, esp on a 4-card suit? They've both passed, and when one's balanced we're not terribly afraid of them suddenly competing to 3♠ or 4minor - meanwhile over a weak NT, there are a number of hands we have with and without fits on which we'll want to probe for game)

[MrAce]

Jinksy, on 2016-October-29, 18:05, said:

Non-casual, but we play everything (apart from 2♦) after 2♣ as natural. So this is just an invite.

(Why would you need 3♥ to be preemptive here, esp on a 4-card suit? They've both passed, and when one's balanced we're not terribly afraid of them suddenly competing to 3♠ or 4minor - meanwhile over a weak NT, there are a number of hands we have with and without fits on which we'll want to probe for game)

3♥ is not preempt. It shows 4 card ♥. Incase your pd has a good hand that can bid game vs a 4 card support. Because 2♥ would not even be a support, it is just preference.
3♥ is not an invitation.



Axxxx
Axxxxx
x
x

is a good example. I bid 4♥ if pd bids 3♥. And I pass if pd bids 2♥ and hope to make 2.

[alok c]

Pass.partner is a passed hand with 4+♥ & we are aceless sitting under the stronger hand.

[Jinksy]

MrAce, on 2016-October-29, 18:41, said:

3♥ is not preempt. It shows 4 card ♥. Incase your pd has a good hand that can bid game vs a 4 card support. Because 2♥ would not even be a support, it is just preference.
3♥ is not an invitation.



Axxxx
Axxxxx
x
x

is a good example. I bid 4♥ if pd bids 3♥. And I pass if pd bids 2♥ and hope to make 2.

What does P do with points and no fit? Normally I like a forcing 2N in competition, but it seems like it doesn't make so much sense here - give him something like xxx Qx AJTx AQxx , and it seems like he should be at least thinking about a positive move. Sure it might go badly opposite the hand you give, but we also want to bid Landy on much more boring hands, like Axxxx KJxx xx Kx (obviously handcrafted, but you can make either hand slightly stronger for similar effect).

Is the idea that one of (a direct 2N after Landy) or 2D pref ask then 2N promises support and inv(+) values?

If so, do you agree with playing something more agricultural if overcaller had just started with a natural bid?

[MrAce]

Jinksy, on 2016-October-30, 04:26, said:

What does P do with points and no fit? Normally I like a forcing 2N in competition, but it seems like it doesn't make so much sense here - give him something like xxx Qx AJTx AQxx , and it seems like he should be at least thinking about a positive move. Sure it might go badly opposite the hand you give, but we also want to bid Landy on much more boring hands, like Axxxx KJxx xx Kx (obviously handcrafted, but you can make either hand slightly stronger for similar effect).

Is the idea that one of (a direct 2N after Landy) or 2D pref ask then 2N promises support and inv(+) values?

If so, do you agree with playing something more agricultural if overcaller had just started with a natural bid?

IMO whichever method you choose, you need to be able to show a 4 card support to one of the majors of pd. After all knowing a 5-4 or 6-4 fit instead of a possible 5-2 or 6-2 fit changes A LOT for pd.
And that is jumping to 3M. You have more options for invitation over 2♣ than michaels 1♦-2♦ for example.

[Jinksy]

What's the worst hand on which you'd make this jump-response? Presumably you'd still play it as reasonably constructive?

[MrAce]

Jinksy, on 2016-October-30, 21:35, said:

What's the worst hand on which you'd make this jump-response? Presumably you'd still play it as reasonably constructive?

Hxxx in our suit and out is enough for me. You need to figure out the top range rather than bottom range imo. I play it up to flat 9.
H being A-K-Q

To me it works both ways. It can be useful for pd as I said earlier or it can be preemptive if he is broke too.

I have seen us in 4-4 fit doing this which made them not play their 3 NT thinking we have 5-4 of this suit. Good thing about it is, the info you give is very useful for pd and rarely useful for opponents and it steals some valuable space from them. As I said same applies for Michaels.

[StevenG]

I still puzzled, because I don't see any value in preempting after 1NT (12-14) - pass - pass. Surely it just risks getting too high for no reward.

[alok c]

StevenG, on 2016-October-31, 02:08, said:

I still puzzled, because I don't see any value in preempting after 1NT (12-14) - pass - pass. Surely it just risks getting too high for no reward.

Actually this preempts limits the level of calls of East type hands.East bids two♠ after 2H by West unsure about number of ♥ & pts in West hand,now West is in a dilemma & so on.

[WellSpyder]

This is much closer in my mind than in that of most people replying. If you play 3♥ as a simply invitational bid (which seems quite playable to me, even if there are better follow-up agreements possible) then I have to admit I would be tempted to accept on this hand. I accept it is ace-less, but it also only has 6 losers where I would expect a minimum hand to have 7.

[Jinksy]

It feels closer to me too. I don't think aces are actually that good sitting under a weak NT. IMO good intermediates and soft honour sequences such as QJx JT9x pull far more weight than normal, since there's a good chance you'll be able to run a finesse through opener towards partner's presumptive (given that he's strong enough for you to have investigated game) aces and kings. The absence of aces is also slightly less of a concern when one of the opps is known to be balanced, since defensive ruffs are less likely.

Here's the full hand:

---

Game is excellent looking at just the E/W cards after the 1N opener, and on the actual hand it seems trivial to make 11 tricks.

In fact P just limped into 2♥, but he agreed afterwards that he should have done something stronger, but we weren't sure who if anyone should have made the final decision to take us to game. Perhaps he should have blasted 4♥?

[MrAce]

Jinksy, on 2016-October-31, 10:07, said:

It feels closer to me too. I don't think aces are actually that good sitting under a weak NT. IMO good intermediates and soft honour sequences such as QJx JT9x pull far more weight than normal, since there's a good chance you'll be able to run a finesse through opener towards partner's presumptive (given that he's strong enough for you to have investigated game) aces and kings. The absence of aces is also slightly less of a concern when one of the opps is known to be balanced, since defensive ruffs are less likely.

Here's the full hand:

---

Game is excellent looking at just the E/W cards after the 1N opener, and on the actual hand it seems trivial to make 11 tricks.

In fact P just limped into 2♥, but he agreed afterwards that he should have done something stronger, but we weren't sure who if anyone should have made the final decision to take us to game. Perhaps he should have blasted 4♥?

2 or 3♥ with W hand is funny. Even if 3♥ is an invitation (pretty bad to invite like that but whatever)

How was E supposed to accept the invitation with

KQJxx
Q9xx
xxx
x

??

People, get rid of this bean counting when pd shows 2 suiter! Look at your support and gems in his suits!