[Shugart23]

Playing Precision, Partner and I are somewhat aggressive with our Opening of 1 of a Major....In general, we will use the Rule of 20, or 19 if we have a quick trick.

Whether we are in 1st seat or 3rd seat, we really don't vary our style...our style might vary depending upon red/white situation but not 1st or 3rd seat position. Here I am not talking about preempts. I am talking about the decision to open 1H (or 1S) vs Pass.

Is this a mistake ? I am wondering how other precision players vary their 1st vs. 3rd seat opening in a Precision system. Do you open 3rd seat 'light'...eg sort of a Rule of 17 or 18 vs 20 ?

I appreciate any discussion to help me....I should add I am strictly talking Matchpoint

[spotlight7]

 Shugart23, on 2016-August-29, 04:56, said:

Playing Precision, Partner and I are somewhat aggressive with our Opening of 1 of a Major....In general, we will use the Rule of 20, or 19 if we have a quick trick.

Whether we are in 1st seat or 3rd seat, we really don't vary our style...our style might vary depending upon red/white situation but not 1st or 3rd seat position. Here I am not talking about preempts. I am talking about the decision to open 1H (or 1S) vs Pass.

Is this a mistake ? I am wondering how other precision players vary their 1st vs. 3rd seat opening in a Precision system. Do you open 3rd seat 'light'...eg sort of a Rule of 17 or 18 vs 20 ?

I appreciate any discussion to help me....I should add I am strictly talking Matchpoint

Opening bids are largely a matter of system and your bidding style.


Meckwell tends to open any 10 and some 9 HCP hands in 1st or 2nd seats.

In 3rd seat they tend to open 1D with most 8+HCP hands.



I do open lighter playing Precision than using a 2/1 CC.

I also tend to double much more often at MPs, so my opening

bids tend to have considerably more than one quick trick.



Find a bidding style that enjoy using and use that

approach. Meckwell bids game when holding half of

the deck. I prefer to hold more like 24/25HCPs.


As far as opening light in 3rd seat, my style is to

open a 'light' hand with 2M with a good five card

suit when non vul.


When vul. my style is conservative. I wear both a

belt and suspenders when I am vul.


Non vul. 3 bids can be AQJxxx or AKJxxx type suits in any seat.

[Shugart23]

 spotlight7, on 2016-August-29, 06:32, said:

Opening bids are largely a matter of system and your bidding style.


Meckwell tends to open any 10 and some 9 HCP hands in 1st or 2nd seats.

In 3rd seat they tend to open 1D with most 8+HCP hands.



I do open lighter playing Precision than using a 2/1 CC.

I also tend to double much more often at MPs, so my opening

bids tend to have considerably more than one quick trick.



Find a bidding style that enjoy using and use that

approach. Meckwell bids game when holding half of

the deck. I prefer to hold more like 24/25HCPs.


As far as opening light in 3rd seat, my style is to

open a 'light' hand with 2M with a good five card

suit when non vul.


When vul. my style is conservative. I wear both a

belt and suspenders when I am vul.


Non vul. 3 bids can be AQJxxx or AKJxxx type suits in any seat.

Thanks...I am really asking a very specific question

[Zelandakh]

One of the interesting aspects of opening light is that it increases the tactical possibilities in third seat. If you are fairly sure that partner has less than 10 points, you can afford to psyche relatively freely with any 0-5hcp hand. The nebulous diamond also happens to be one of the most psyche-resistant openings available provided you are playing traditional responses. This makes for a good combination with imaginative players providing the RA has not banned psyches for artificial openings.

On the other hand, I think the benefits to be had from shading the 1M openings downwards in third seat are marginal at best. You are probably not gaining very much at all over using your normal 1st/2nd seat style here, so sticking with something close to Rule of 19 is probably more sensible than going down to Rule of 17 or 18. Indeed, if you give me a typical 5=5=2=1 hand I think I'd sooner open 1♠ with 2hcp (as ♠Q) than 7 in third seat at green. The problem with Rule of 17/18 hands here is that you are often sticking your neck out and messing up your constructive bidding against a part-score deal.

Of course winning part scores helps and 1♠ in particular has a useful preemptive effect but you have to weigh up the risks versus the rewards. A good person to get the opinion of here would be hrothgar, who probably has more experience of opening extremely light (8+) than anyone else at BBF. Perhaps he can provide some additional insights from that.

[Shugart23]

[quote name='Zelandakh' timestamp='1472477557' post='895886']
On the other hand, I think the benefits to be had from shading the 1M openings downwards in third seat are marginal at best. You are probably not gaining very much at all over using your normal 1st/2nd seat style here, so sticking with something close to Rule of 19 is probably more sensible than going down to Rule of 17 or 18.

Thanks...this was the conclusion I was coming to; partner and I also do gain some additional preemptive effect because we frequently open 4 card Majors (canapé style)....

[spotlight7]

Precision bidding comes in an assortment of bid styles. Alan Sontag wrote a book, "Power Precision"

that used 12-16HCP openings rather than 11-15. He won quite a lot playing the methods in his book.



Meckwell is at the other end of Precision opening bids.

They tend to bid whenever it is there turn to bid.



If you play canapé style, you might like Auken Club by Sabine Auken. She opens very light

and she also uses canapé style. You can find a CC and notes on her system at BridgeFiles.



I played Precision Two Down and Two Up several decades ago. Bids were 9-13 in 1st/2nd seat

with a 14+ 1C* In 3rd and 4th seat 13-17 openings with a 18+ 1C* and positives were 6+HCP.


In the 70s I used a Forcing Pass system, so we never passed in any

seat. 1C* was 0-9HCP and other bids were 10-15. Pass* showed 13-15

balanced or any 16+ hand. We also used canapé style bidding.


I suggest that you play whatever works for you.

[Phil]

 Shugart23, on 2016-August-29, 04:56, said:

Whether we are in 1st seat or 3rd seat, we really don't vary our style.

(Snip)

Is this a mistake ? I am wondering how other precision players vary their 1st vs. 3rd seat opening in a Precision system. Do you open 3rd seat 'light'...eg sort of a Rule of 17 or 18 vs 20

If you are in 4th seat there's no reason to open a lite hand unless you have spades or shape. This is especially true playing Precision because your partner is protecting you by opening 10's and 11's. Therefore you can throw the hand in and know you're outgunned or going to be outbid and rate to get a minus score.

3rd seat is a little different and there are tactical reasons for opening. There's a good chance you can get in a lead director, or make a lite preempt. Partner also won't hang you if you open 1N.

Opening 1D is problematic if it's 2+ or shorter. Dependingon where you're from, this may be deemed 'not natural' and require at least a 10 count.

[The_Badger]

hi Shugart23,

As a former Precision player myself, it all depends on what other bids you have in your system: weak twos, multi, etc. And it also depends on whether the ♥ or ♠ are 5 or 6 card suits, too.

My college partner was guilty of tinkering with Precision, and I had to go along with him: he was older (and bigger than me)!

Many good 5 card major card suits in an unbalanced hand (8-11 HCPs) were opened with 2♦ multi, and weak twos were half-decent 6 card suits (5-9 HCPs).

[Trick13]

I will open as often as I can. Often you can tell the opponents are in the game zone, and a passed Precision partner will not get carried away. But we don't have rules. The nebulous 1D is often a good choice, but since I don't have that any more I find myself opening 1NT a lot (10-14) especially with 6m or 5 hearts. I always look at my spade holding. I may open a hand at the 2-level that I would open at the 1-level in 1st or 2nd seat.

[rhm]

Third hand opening is all about tactics and in my opinion should be little influenced by 1/2. hand opening style.
If you believe in an aggressive opening style in first seat, there is all the more reason to suspect that 4th hand has the strongest hand.
How do you like it if you have a strong hand and third seat opens the bidding? Would you not in general prefer to get a free run instead?

My third seat openings tend to be influenced whether I am in red or not and little else.
In white everything goes, outright psyches, lead indicator, subminimum opening, sound opening.
There are still a lot of hands I pass, 4333 with 2 aces and little else for example. But generally I believe in action.
In red I tend to open in third what I would open in fourth seat. (Preempts are different in third and fourth seat)

However, I do not believe in standard passed hand bidding methods (Lawrence etc).
I do not like to open 4 card majors unless I am balanced and the 4 card suit is very strong, AQJx is about minimum, where I would make an exception.
Passed partner should be free to raise the major aggressively. This works much better with 5 card majors.
I hate passed hand jumping to 2NT as natural. Passed hand should rarely invite game in notrumps, unless opener has promised a good opening.
Opener does not necessarily guarantee a sound opening if he takes another bid.
So my style is that opener has a lot of freedom and passed hand is somewhat restricted taking strong action except when supporting partner.
This keeps us low, unless a fit comes to light. From time to time we might miss close notrump games.
When the strength does not add up at the table, it might be prudent for passed hand to believe opponents rather than third hand partner. Do not make close doubles.
Druri is essential

Does this hurt my constructive bidding?
Sure it does, but in practice I had remarkably few instances for regret.
However, there is ample reward, particularly at matchpoints.

Rainer Herrmann

[Shugart23]

 rhm, on 2016-August-30, 06:27, said:

Third hand opening is all about tactics and in my opinion should be little influenced by 1/2. hand opening style.
If you believe in an aggressive opening style in first seat, there is all the more reason to suspect that 4th hand has the strongest hand.
How do you like it if you have a strong hand and third seat opens the bidding? Would you not in general prefer to get a free run instead?

My third seat openings tend to be influenced whether I am in red or not and little else.
In white everything goes, outright psyches, lead indicator, subminimum opening, sound opening.
There are still a lot of hands I pass, 4333 with 2 aces and little else for example. But generally I believe in action.
In red I tend to open in third what I would open in fourth seat. (Preempts are different in third and fourth seat)

However, I do not believe in standard passed hand bidding methods (Lawrence etc).
I do not like to open 4 card majors unless I am balanced and the 4 card suit is very strong, AQJx is about minimum, where I would make an exception.
Passed partner should be free to raise the major aggressively. This works much better with 5 card majors.
I hate passed hand jumping to 2NT as natural. Passed hand should rarely invite game in notrumps, unless opener has promised a good opening.
Opener does not necessarily guarantee a sound opening if he takes another bid.
So my style is that opener has a lot of freedom and passed hand is somewhat restricted taking strong action except when supporting partner.
This keeps us low, unless a fit comes to light. From time to time we might miss close notrump games.
When the strength does not add up at the table, it might be prudent for passed hand to believe opponents rather than third hand partner. Do not make close doubles.
Druri is essential

Does this hurt my constructive bidding?
Sure it does, but in practice I had remarkably few instances for regret.
However, there is ample reward, particularly at matchpoints.

Rainer Herrmann

Thanks....very helpful....I will say that partner and I have played a super-precision system for about 4 years, but this year we decided to modify it and try learning a canapé system. (I hated opening 1D all the time when I lacked a 5 card Major) We have found opening 1H or 1S with xxxx to be extremely rewarding for us and perhaps equally frustrating for the opponents.

[hrothgar]

FWIW, when I am playing MOSCITO which uses an extremely aggressive opening style in first / second seat, I prefer to play a fairly sound opening style in third and fourth seat.
(I normally play a modified version of Blue Club or some such such)

Simply put, if I am not playing a sound opening style, there are too many "dead" constructive bidding sequences and the efficiency of the bidding system gets pretty ugly.