[alok c]

 gordontd, on 2016-April-24, 03:38, said:

I think it would have to be a hand with slam values and four spades, wanting to play in 6S if you have four of them (as well as your four hearts) and 6NT if you don't.

In that case would'nt it be prudent for responder to bid 5Spades,so that opener can bid 5NT/6S depending upon his hand & subsequently responder can bid 6NT/pass.

[gordontd]

 alok c, on 2016-April-24, 22:50, said:

In that case would'nt it be prudent for responder to bid 5Spades,so that opener can bid 5NT/6S depending upon his hand & subsequently responder can bid 6NT/pass.

That wouldn't work so well if opener decided it was an invitation and chose to decline it.

[rhm]

 nige1, on 2016-April-24, 16:46, said:

Perhaps partner thinks 6♠ is clearer. He pays you the compliment that you can work that out. IMO, without 4♠, you should probably prefer 6N,

Partner should pay compliments in the postmortem.
I can do without such compliments in the bidding.

Rainer Herrmann

[gordontd]

 Jinksy, on 2016-April-23, 19:21, said:

Assume strong partnership, but with only rudimentary agreements over 1N:

1N 2♣ /
2♥ 6♠

What sort of hand do you expect from responder?

So what was the hand?

[gszes]

I was a bit surprised there were so many unfamiliar with this. That player has some GOOD beginners since I don't even mess with slam bidding until they have a clue about game/no game bidding. The main point is that, until proven otherwise, your CHO is actually on your side and at least TRY and think of a logical meaning. EVERYONE learns differently and we do the best we can. I like a treatment where if I open 6 (of anything) I want p to bid 7 with the A or K of trumps. I have discussed this with many people and few had thought of it but no one hated it. This 6s bid (showing 4 spades and POC to 6n) can be figured out if you quit watching cows jump or playing doodle bug while playing bridge:)

[Jinksy]

 gordontd, on 2016-April-24, 03:38, said:

I think it would have to be a hand with slam values and four spades, wanting to play in 6S if you have four of them (as well as your four hearts) and 6NT if you don't.

Interesting that this has the most support - it's what the guy apparently meant (I wasn't part of the partnership).

It doesn't seem very intuitive to me, though. I would just have taken it as a hand that wanted to play in 6♠ after hearing a 2♥ response to Stayman - probably a crisp but insubstantial 2-suiter that hoped to do a lot of cross-ruffing AQJxxx Kx Axxxx - or something.

[gordontd]

 Jinksy, on 2016-April-25, 10:25, said:

Interesting that this has the most support - it's what the guy apparently meant (I wasn't part of the partnership).

It doesn't seem very intuitive to me, though. I would just have taken it as a hand that wanted to play in 6♠ after hearing a 2♥ response to Stayman - probably a crisp but insubstantial 2-suiter that hoped to do a lot of cross-ruffing AQJxxx Kx Axxxx - or something.

Why would that hand use Stayman rather than transferring and bidding the second suit?

[Jinksy]

 gordontd, on 2016-April-25, 11:35, said:

Why would that hand use Stayman rather than transferring and bidding the second suit?

Well if a second suit would be forcing and the hand is distributional enough to care about a 4-4 spade fit when it has the values for 6N, it feels like you could do that anyway with the hand with 4 spades. But even if not, I'm envisaging a hand (you might not agree it's this one) that has no particular interest in playing with the second suit as trumps, either because the second suit is too weak or spades too good.

[SteveMoe]

Let's see. After 1N - 2♣ - 2♥

3N shows 4♠ and offers choice of games.
4N shows spades and invites 6. (Depending on your agreement either 4♣ or 4♦ would show a balanced invite to 6♥ with 4-card support).
5N? - if choice of slams is on our card, this could show ♠ and a desire to play at the 6 level.

WHen it comes to jumps in the ♠ suit things are less clear:
3♠ shows a ♥ GF and demands cue bidding Some use this for a hidden splinter.
4♠ shows?? An invite to 6N w/o ♠ would never go through Stayman. So it must be a splinter perhaps void splinter.
5♠ shows?? Dangerously high for Exclusion - so perhaps this is the bid for the Choose between 6♠ and 6N.
6♠, well OK, if you insist this must be 4♠ cards and a desire to play 6 only? Not so sure given the rest of the tool kit.

I am allergic to unnecessary jumps to the 6 level.

[rhm]

 SteveMoe, on 2016-April-25, 20:55, said:

I am allergic to unnecessary jumps to the 6 level.

I am not, but I am allergic if such jumps are based on some mystery logic made up on the spot.
Assume partner thinks 6♠ might be preferable to 6NT if opener has 4 spades.
Then he was still prepared to play 6NT in the much more likely case when opener had less than 4 spades.

Is that worth risking a disaster, where you might be able to win the postmortem?
I concentrate my efforts to win the deal not the postmortem.

Rainer Herrmann

[Zelandakh]

 SteveMoe, on 2016-April-25, 20:55, said:

Let's see. After 1N - 2♣ - 2♥

3N shows 4♠ and offers choice of games.

Agreed. There are alternatives, such as completing the splinter suite, but I do not know anyone that plays it.

 SteveMoe, on 2016-April-25, 20:55, said:

4N shows spades and invites 6. (Depending on your agreement either 4♣ or 4♦ would show a balanced invite to 6♥ with 4-card support).

Well that is certainly the most common but if you use 2♠ as a range ask there are other alternatives, such as XRKCB for example.

 SteveMoe, on 2016-April-25, 20:55, said:

5N? - if choice of slams is on our card, this could show ♠ and a desire to play at the 6 level.

Certainly it is either going to be PaS or an invite to 7NT - hard to think of too many alternatives.

 SteveMoe, on 2016-April-25, 20:55, said:

WHen it comes to jumps in the ♠ suit things are less clear:
3♠ shows a ♥ GF and demands cue bidding Some use this for a hidden splinter.

And some use it as a simple splinter

 SteveMoe, on 2016-April-25, 20:55, said:

4♠ shows?? An invite to 6N w/o ♠ would never go through Stayman. So it must be a splinter perhaps void splinter.

Obvious alternatives are RKCB (Kickback) and XRKCB.

 SteveMoe, on 2016-April-25, 20:55, said:

5♠ shows?? Dangerously high for Exclusion - so perhaps this is the bid for the Choose between 6♠ and 6N.

Sounds sensible to me.

 SteveMoe, on 2016-April-25, 20:55, said:

6♠, well OK, if you insist this must be 4♠ cards and a desire to play 6 only? Not so sure given the rest of the tool kit.

How about a hand like ♠AKQxxx ♥KQJT ♦- ♣AKQ? Obviously there are other (perhaps better) ways of handling this but it would be pointless to have both 5♠ and 6♠ show the same hand type!

 SteveMoe, on 2016-April-25, 20:55, said:

I am allergic to unnecessary jumps to the 6 level.

The key word here is unnecessary. If you define your jumps to the 6 level well and provide alternative auctions for other hand types then they are not really unnecessary on the rare occasions when you hold the specific hand. If, after 1NT - 2♣; 2♥, you play both 2♠ as a range ask and 3♦ as showing 4 hearts, you have a huge array of auctions available and thereby great freedom in how you want to define these rare jumps. The optimal way then depends on the specific hands your system routes through 2♣ and the bundled meaning for the 2♠ rebid (usually either Baron or clubs). I would imagine that even a pick-up expert pair will usually manage to have some rudimentary discussion on a NT structure before starting play, which in turn might affect the logical conclusions (promisary vs non-promisary, for example, often makes a big difference).

[gordontd]

 SteveMoe, on 2016-April-25, 20:55, said:

Let's see. After 1N - 2♣ - 2♥

6♠, well OK, if you insist this must be 4♠ cards and a desire to play 6 only? Not so sure given the rest of the tool kit.

You seem to have left out the one part of the tool kit that gives a clue - 2♠

[Vampyr]

 gordontd, on 2016-April-26, 03:34, said:

You seem to have left out the one part of the tool kit that gives a clue - 2♠

It is not clear whether this was available to the pair. They may have been playing 1NT-2NT as artificial, so the 2♠ bid would be invitational with four spade.

[gordontd]

 Vampyr, on 2016-April-26, 04:56, said:

It is not clear whether this was available to the pair. They may have been playing 1NT-2NT as artificial, so the 2♠ bid would be invitational with four spade.

That was precisely my point.

[SteveMoe]

 Zelandakh, on 2016-April-26, 02:40, said:

I would imagine that even a pick-up expert pair will usually manage to have some rudimentary discussion on a NT structure before starting play, which in turn might affect the logical conclusions (promisary vs non-promisary, for example, often makes a big difference).

Zel, I agree your adds and points made - precisely because we cannot really know what 6♠ means until we examine the remaining existing agreements. Thanks!

[nige1]

 gszes, on 2016-April-25, 08:35, said:

The main point is that, until proven otherwise, your CHO is actually on your side and at least TRY and think of a logical meaning. EVERYONE learns differently and we do the best we can. I like a treatment where if I open 6 (of anything) I want p to bid 7 with the A or K of trumps. I have discussed this with many people and few had thought of it but no one hated it. This 6s bid (showing 4 spades and POC to 6n) can be figured out if you quit watching cows jump or playing doodle bug while playing bridge:)

 Jinksy, on 2016-April-25, 10:25, said:

Interesting that this has the most support - it's what the guy apparently meant (I wasn't part of the partnership)...

There's some scope for confusion, but not much. Gszes assumes that partner is consulting you.and that seems right.

[Jinksy]

It still seems unclear to me. Partner is allowed to blast, especially opposite a limited hand (eg no-one would have batted an eyelid at 1N P 6S), and it hardly seems clear that, by checking for a 4cM, he's relinquishing that right.

[benlessard]

4S and enough strenght to play 6S/6NT, I tought this was standard.

I dont see what else it could be. Even if you play pick a slam 5NT followed by 6S should be even if you have 4S you may pick 6NT.

[Fluffy]

Those who think it shows 4♠ and a choice between 6♠ and 6NT are forgetting that partner just needs to bid 3m over 2♥ to know if opener holds 4♠, afterwards he can jump to 6 whatever.

[Stephen Tu]

 Fluffy, on 2016-May-01, 01:30, said:

Those who think it shows 4♠ and a choice between 6♠ and 6NT are forgetting that partner just needs to bid 3m over 2♥ to know if opener holds 4♠, afterwards he can jump to 6 whatever.

No, we are thinking:
- if it's not that, is there another logical meaning of 6♠, other than initial massive spade/club confusion?
- even though *we* remember that partner could have just bid 3m or 5nt to find out about 4♠, we play with less reliable partners who have blind spots or just forget rarely utilized options in the heat of battle, and just picked out a bid that made sense to them.

I know that 5nt should logically mean pick a slam, 6s or 6nt, but I've also never made that bid on this sequence in my lifetime of playing bridge. So people who learn differently may not have encountered that idea or thought it through, and it doesn't occur to them, only the 6s bid occurs to them, counting on partner to figure out, else why stayman first.

And as for 3m, it may not occur to partner to bid a 3cd/4cd minor to find out about 4 spades, since normally that shows 5+ suit. So again they miss this possibility in their mind and only see 6s as the option.