[lmilne]

Imagine you hold ♠ KJ543 ♥ A43 ♦ Q87 ♣ Q2.

You open 1♠, next hand overcalls 4♥, and partner bids:
a) 5♥
b) 5♠.


Similarly, imagine you hold ♠ KQ543 ♥ A4 ♦ K872 ♣ A2.

You open 1♠, next hand overcalls 4♥, and partner bids:
a) 5♥
b) 5♠.

Interested in discussion of what partner's bids mean, what your continuations mean, and the general concepts involved.

[wank]

5h is a slam try with or without a heart control.

5s is a slam force with no heart control.

[helene_t]

Do you really mean that, Wank? I would think that both should be slam tries.

5♥ with a control, 5♠ without, is what I would assume undiscussed. But I wonder if that is the most useful distinction. It will be rare that opps can cash two heart tricks if we really have a good enough hand for 5-level safety. Maybe the number of keycards is more important.

You can also bid 4NT so you have three slam tries available.

[wank]

you have 4 hand types (slam force heart control, slam force no heart control, slam try with a heart control, slam try with no heart control) and only 3 bids. something has to be conflated.

[helene_t]

Ah right, "slam force" doesn't mean forcing to slam, it means forcing to slam if partner has a control?

[nullve]

wank, on 2016-January-28, 03:30, said:

you have 4 hand types (slam force heart control, slam force no heart control, slam try with a heart control, slam try with no heart control) and only 3 bids. something has to be conflated.

Are you sure? Here are 4 bids that could be used:

* 5♥ preceded by 4N (Unusual)
* 5♠ preceded by 4N (Unusual)
* 5♥ directly
* 5♠ directly

But I think it's sufficient to play

1♠-(4♥)-?:

(...)
4N = Unusual
...5m = pref. opposite a minor 2-suiter
......(...)
......5♠ = slam invitation in S, no H control (=> P = min or no H control; 5N+ = number of KC w/ extras and H control?)
......(...)
...(...)
5♥ = slam try w/ S support and H control (=> 5♠ = min; 5N+ = number of KC with extras?)
5♠ = Lackwood-like, with responses similar to those I mentioned in this thread: http://www.bridgebas...iamond-control/
(...)

As for the consensus: I've learned the hard way that there isn't any.

[helene_t]

After 4N then 5♥, the minor which partner picked is trump, at least ostensibly.

[nullve]

helene_t, on 2016-January-28, 04:39, said:

After 4N then 5♥, the minor which partner picked is trump, at least ostensibly.

Agree.

[Zelandakh]

wank, on 2016-January-28, 03:30, said:

you have 4 hand types (slam force heart control, slam force no heart control, slam try with a heart control, slam try with no heart control) and only 3 bids. something has to be conflated.

I have said it before, the hand type to omit is the slam force with heart control because that one can simply bid the slam. The hand type that is relevant there is actually the grand try but that can be shown by starting 5♥ and then bidding again over partner's presumed 5♠.

[wank]

it depends what you want to use 4nt for. there's a better argument for this one being blackwood than any of the other 4nt bids after a 4 level overcall. blackwood makes bidding 7 easier.

[rhm]

When opponents take away our bidding room I like to play that in this sequence 5♥ is at least a strong invite and 5♠ is a weaker invite.
Neither asks for heart control.

With ♠ KJ543 ♥ A43 ♦ Q87 ♣ Q2. I would pass or bid 5 ♠

with ♠ KQ543 ♥ A4 ♦ K872 ♣ A2 I would bid 6♥.

Over an overcall of 2♥ or a jump overcall of 3♥ 5♠ asks specifically for heart control. For the convention to apply the bid must jump 2 levels or more or jump one level if we showed controls before.

But I am sure this is not consensus.

Rainer Herrmann

[daffydoc]

on both hands 5S says bid 6 with 2nd round heart control so in first case i don't like my hand but have control so bid 6, in second case i love my hand and bid 6H or cue my minor ace trying for a grand. over 5H I don't care for my hand on first but do on second - so since pard may have a void my ace is wasted - bid 5s on first and 6 spades on the second. daffydoc

[Caitlynne]

In both cases, 5S asks/demands that opener bid raise to slam with heart control.

With a bad hand, as in the first example, opener merely bids 6S. With a good hand, as in the second example, opener should cue bid to guarantee first round control. Generally, 6H shows the Ace and another bid shows something good with a heart void.

These are standard agreements right out of Goren.

The 5H bid by responder is a slam try and it shows heart control. With a poor hand - such as the first one - you should sign-off in 5S. With the second hand - a very good hand for the auction - you make a forward going grand slam try. I would bid 6C.