[fourdad]

3♣
It should at least be an option in the poll

[TomReynold]

Since I open 4 card majors (with a club system) my issues are different.

I double, partner will bid 2S with 11-13HCP and 5 Spades. I pass. Partner will bid 2NT with a 14-16HCP NT. I will raise and hope I make it. With a 14-16HCP NT, 4 Spades to AK, a heart honor and another card say (akxx, Axx Ax xxx) partner will pass playing me for spade shortage). If partner bids 3C I pass because he can have 5 clubs and 4 Spades. Over 3D I bid 3 Spades because his bid confirms 5 spades.

At match points the opponents will often help by bidding 2H (1S-2H-x-3H). Partner will pass denying a strong NT (14-16HCP) and confirming 5 Spades.I double because it looks like their is only 15-16 total tricks on the hand.

The big problem is when opener doubles showing 14-16HCP but might be 4-2-2-5. Now there are 18 total tricks.

Tom

[jogs]

TomReynold, on 2015-September-26, 17:06, said:

The big problem is when opener doubles showing 14-16HCP but might be 4-2-2-5. Now there are 18 total tricks.

Tom

This is why Lawrence is objecting. Tricks equal trumps is a guideline, a loose guideline. It is certainly not a law.

4=2=2=5 // 2=3=3=5

With 20 high card points the expected tricks with clubs as trumps is =< 9. There will be likely duplication of values.
With a 5-5 fit, there needs to be a singleton in one of the hands before the expected tricks can be 10.

[mikeh]

fourdad, on 2015-September-26, 16:16, said:

3♣
It should at least be an option in the poll

why?

[phil_20686]

benlessard, on 2015-September-26, 11:12, said:

I guess its a style question.

With my regular partnership X is semi penality (show cards not short in H and 10pts+).

But the standard way that ive learned is that X is minors or long D not good enough for 3D or a strong hand with unclear direction (planning to take another bid).

With a 5233 I expect opener to rebid 3C. With a 5332 and xxx in H i expect 3D not 2S. In short i expect very good !S to bid 2!S with 5.

In retrospect i can understand those who play X ask for a 4m and 2S is a catch-all rebid but i dont see how they can continue if opener rebid of 2S can be anything. You seems to play that X is often 2 trumps and a 5m but i see this as inferior to X is often 54 & 55 in the M.

This feels very odd. I understand why you are so keen to bid 2S on two cards if double basically rules you out of a 5-2 spade fit!

I wouldn't play 2N as natural from either side, which deals with these hands. If you double when you want to force partner into bidding a minor, then you bid 2N over the expected 2s response. That forces partner to bid a minor.

[jodepp]

This may seem odd, but isn't a negative double just about automatic at IMPs?

[jdonn]

Double seems quite clear to me. That leaves all our options open. If I pass it's just too hard to catch up. A 4-3 diamond fit does not seem like a big deal with my good diamonds. I do not see a big negative in the xxx of hearts (it helps if partner is 5431 and passes, or if he rebids 2NT). And I find raising on a doubleton here completely weird, and I have seen it work badly almost every time. It convinces partner to overcompete in spades, and makes it so hard to get to clubs or diamonds if we belong there.

[cherdano]

jodepp, on 2015-September-27, 16:16, said:

This may seem odd, but isn't a negative double just about automatic at IMPs?

This should have been the entire thread IMO.

[jogs]

jodepp, on 2015-September-27, 16:16, said:

This may seem odd, but isn't a negative double just about automatic at IMPs?

There seems to be a huge disagreement on what constitutes a negative double.

With 5=2=3=3, should opener rebid 2♠, 3♣ or something else?

[phil_20686]

jodepp, on 2015-September-27, 16:16, said:

This may seem odd, but isn't a negative double just about automatic at IMPs?

jdonn, on 2015-September-28, 13:28, said:

Double seems quite clear to me. That leaves all our options open. If I pass it's just too hard to catch up. A 4-3 diamond fit does not seem like a big deal with my good diamonds. I do not see a big negative in the xxx of hearts (it helps if partner is 5431 and passes, or if he rebids 2NT). And I find raising on a doubleton here completely weird, and I have seen it work badly almost every time. It convinces partner to overcompete in spades, and makes it so hard to get to clubs or diamonds if we belong there.

cherdano, on 2015-September-28, 14:38, said:

This should have been the entire thread IMO.

I kind of understand this sentiment, and the poll kinda suggests it, but at least one strong player didn't double (mikeh), and I thought it was pretty close and had sympathy for pass.

I even played for a while that dble here was 2.5 !s raise, and just gave up on the negative double, and found that to be pretty playable too. You had to pass on hands like the above, but we got more 3s/3h decisions right, and most of the time we got back into the auction ok when we needed to, or a lot of negative double hands you can just suck it up and bid 3m if a bit stronger.. In the end we decided it wasn't right and started playing double as a 2.5 spade raise only by a passed hand, and we like the trade offs there, so I would have passed this hand if I had already passed and doubled if unpassed, which feels a bit strange but we found the extra spade range was just so big on a bunch of boards. Avoiding poor games, getting to games when we had a "heavy" 2S bid. Staying in 2S when partner was a third seat opener.

I mean, I find this auction really interesting because its just a little space constricted, especially if you open 1S quite light like, e.g. third seat openers or precision.

[benlessard]

I did post a poll on BW

http://bridgewinners...on-for-1s-2h-x/

Most players seems to play that a rebid of 2S tend to show 6 so with 5(332) they pick a minor or bid 2NT (most players prefer natural but i prefer artificial).

the advantage of 2S show 6 is that with 13(45) you can pass 2S. You can also raise 2S to 3S. The downside is that 23(53) are not good shapes to make a neg double.

Also for me it matters if opener 2NT is natural or not. The gadget i like is replying as a MSS.

Opener rebids after the X

2S= 6 sometimes 5422
2NT = prefer diamonds
3C = prefer clubs
3D = 5S+5D

this allow responder to X with 2(32)6 and end in 3C vs a 5242

in short in this style the X is more minors oriented (6m or at least 54) but if you have a flat shape 2344/2353/2335 doubling is less attractive since you will often play 3m instead of 2S.

[cherdano]

Ben, your BW poll was very confusing. I bet many didn't read your long post and only the poll options before voting.

E.g. I saw someone vote for C1 and was suprised he did so. I asked him and he said no, of course he would never bid a 3-card minor on this auction.

You should just have asked what the normal rebid with 5(332) is. I bet you would have gotten votes for 2S, and for 2N natural. Maybe 2N scrambling with 5=2=3=3. But you would have gotten <5% votes for bidding a 3-card minor.

[benlessard]

Yeah your probably right since it didnt match the discussion here.

I dont think my poll was confusing just that many people didnt read it completly.

Anyway Im sure im not going to change my style here since that since its a popular style with my partners and we got success with it and im sure i wont be able to convinced you. Note that with strong hands we do double with 2(353) and 2344.

However i think Ben Kristensen approach got a lot of sense.

X---??

2S any minimum 5 or 6S
3m = extras and natural
2NT he says min but i would use extras

this allow to use the X as a 2.5 raise.

this look pretty good. If you use 2S as could be 5 or 6S and responder cant pass 2S with S shortness you might as well use it more often as a waiting bid or strengt showing bid.

What nobody discuss here is what happen when its

1345 vs ---6412/5323 or similar hand how is responder dealing with the 5 or 6 2S discussing methods and not specifying what you do with the critical cases is a bit lol.

Quote

But you would have gotten <5% votes for bidding a 3-card minor.

that why its important to play 2NT as artificial imo.

Anyway its something that deserved to be sim.

[PhantomSac]

I'd always double personally. even gave me the t9 of spades

[aguahombre]

jogs, on 2015-September-28, 15:32, said:

There seems to be a huge disagreement on what constitutes a negative double.

With 5=2=3=3, should opener rebid 2♠, 3♣ or something else?

2N scrambling would be the choice of some of us.

[rhm]

nige1, on 2015-September-26, 12:43, said:

[hv=pc=n&n=st9h965dkqtckq643&d=s&v=n&b=15&a=1s2h]133|200|
dboxley asks "What are your further plans (if any)?"


I rank
3. Pass. But if partner protects with a double, you are in a dilemma. Bid 2♠ or 3♣ and you might be missing game. Bid 3♥ or anything enterprising and you might punish partner for protecting.

I agree that a reopening DBL is basically unlimited in a natural system.
Nevertheless you need to construct a hand very carfully where we will have game now.
3NT is not at all likely when partner reopens with DBL and did not open 1NT.

5♣ is possible only if

1) reopener is short in hearts
2) has a great club fit
3) a lot of controls.

After all you are missing 4 first round controls and two second round controls.
If the reopening double does not promise extras why can't opener not raise 3♣ with a suitable hand?
If LHO passes twice and opener is short in hearts it is hardly possible that we are broke.
I do not subscribe to the notion that pass denies values.
A good introduction into this subject is given by https://sites.google...operative-pass.

phil_20686, on 2015-September-26, 00:35, said:

So I kind of agree with this view, but its not without cost. If partner is some AKxxx x xx Axxxx and the bidding goes 1S 2h p 4h you might struggle to get back into this auction.

I agree.
This is more of a problem.
Maybe a delayed DBL should show this hand after opponents raise each other.

Rainer Herrmann

[KurtGodel]

nige1, on 2015-September-26, 12:43, said:

dboxley asks "What are your further plans (if any)?"


I rank
1. Double. Descriptive. Values in minors. Intending to pass 2♠, 3m, 2N, or 3N; and bid 3♠ over 3♥.
2. 2♠. At pairs, playing 5-card majors, this might be the optimal competitive move.
3. Pass. But if partner protects with a double, you are in a dilemma. Bid 2♠ or 3♣ and you might be missing game. Bid 3♥ or anything enterprising and you might punish partner for protecting.
4. 3♣. A bit of a stretch.

---

Presumably it's logical to play Lebensohl here.
Edit: I guess scrambling is also a sensible treatment, but I think you'd be bidding a doubleton spade more keenly than a 4 card minor.