[Stephen Tu]

cheers OvO, on 2015-September-17, 08:59, said:

Thanks to all except fourdad. Double would be take-out showing 3+cards on all the others suits. I think we have learned the most basic bidding when we were beginners.

It's extremely common to also use double with very strong (18/19 + HCP) hands without support for all suits, in order to limit the range of a simple overcall, intending to introduce spades in this case if partner doesn't bid a major, showing 5+ spades and 18+. This is basic bidding you apparently haven't learned. The scenario you are avoiding by doubling rather than overcalling is 1d-(1s)-all pass when you have game on. Because a one level overcall can be rather weak (7/8 pts), advancer is not going to respond with all 6/7/8 counts like he would if you had opened the bidding, because it's dangerous to jack up the bidding on a possible misfit when both players aren't very strong. Advancer might have a 2524 7 count and have no sensible bid over 1s other than pass, and then you have missed 4H.

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And 2NT for responce would show a balanced hand with 13-15hcp.

People mentioning 2nt were advocating using it as a conventional raise in competition, analogous to using 2nt as a raise of opener, e.g. 1s-p-2nt, 1s-dbl-2nt. This is a treatment used by some subset of more advanced players. But definitely not something one should assume is in effect.

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In conclusion, what would be the most popular bid with 4support + 10-12pts? 2D? I got to know 3S when I was learing SAYC before bergen and the law.

Most common is the lowest available cue bid. Jump raise is most popularly used as weak or mixed in competition. SAYC specifically is hard to assume anything though; officially from the pamphlet jump raise of opener is still invitational raise, while after an overcall is completely undefined. But only a small percentage of people claiming to play "SAYC" have actually read the pamphlet, so most probably assume jump raise = weak in comp, and cue is likely safest.

[Zelandakh]

cheers OvO, on 2015-September-17, 08:59, said:

Thanks to all except fourdad. Double would be take-out showing 3+cards on all the others suits. I think we have learned the most basic bidding when we were beginners.

Welcome to the BBO forums cheers. Perhaps and perhaps not. What would you call as West with a balanced 21hcp with 2 cards in a side suit? How about the OP hand with an extra ace?

The truth is that there are different agreements after an overcall. Most beginners play that a raise to 3 shows values similar to a limit raise over an opening bid. Sometimes that is in conjunction with a cue bid being a general game force, sometimes not. Most good intermediates and advanced players use the direct raise with a weaker hand (preemptive) and show a stronger raise using a cue bid. Some allow the cue bid also to include awkward GF hands. Other agreements are also possible - having the direct raise show constructive values (mixed) is sometimes done, especially when, as here, red versus white. It is also popular to use 2NT as a good raise, sometimes differentiating from a cue raise based on general strength but more usually on trump length or offensive to defensive ratio (ODR). Another idea that is increasingly popular in auctions such as this one is to use transfers.

What I want to show you with this is not that you should switch to complicated expert methods, even at international level the most common meaning for the direct raise is preemptive and for the cue to be a good raise, but rather that you should be aware that there is still a lot to learn. The correct bid depends on the system you have agreed. If you are playing with a pick-up partner then you have to try and assess their level. If it were available then a 2♦ advance would be suitable absent a particular agreement to use 2NT or the like for this sort of hand. Unfortunately RHO got there first so we need to advance with 3♦ instead on your theoretical hand. Still, we would have been committed to the 3 level after 3♠ anyway so it is not so bad really.

[fourdad]

cheers OvO, on 2015-September-17, 08:59, said:

Thanks to all except fourdad. Double would be take-out showing 3+cards on all the others suits. I think we have learned the most basic bidding when we were beginners. And 2NT for responce would show a balanced hand with 13-15hcp.

In conclusion, what would be the most popular bid with 4support + 10-12pts? 2D? I got to know 3S when I was learing SAYC before bergen and the law.

LOL!!!
You describe a TOX PARTIALLY...

In completion it is an Opening hand with support for the unbid suits OR a hand greater than a mere opener (16+), intending to bid again.

If you will look at the actual hand and consider that you X, then bid spades, you will see that the contract of 4♠ is simple to stop at.
Having said that, nothing trumps a partnership agreement and the only thing obvious here is that you and your partner had no clear agreement.

Neither your way, or what I describe are the ONLY ways.

[cheers OvO]

1eyedjack, on 2015-September-17, 09:08, said:

Are you playing strong jump overcalls, then, and/or direct seat cue of oppo suit is a general force (where it is now more common to show a 2-suiter)? For those (frankly the majority) who do not play those methods, double is the first move on such hands (including a balanced NT overcall that is too strong for immediate 1N). Is a double followed by new suit/NT a redundant set of sequences in your methods?

I think you owe some thanks to fourdad, for pointing out a popular treatment worthy of consideration, even it was not your style at the time.

Oh how nice your comments are Yes some bid double at that position, and I was reminded some prefer 2D with nice highers like my AKxxx AKxx although michael plays at least 5-5 generally. I missed the great idea from the beginning to the end！

[fourdad]

1eyedjack, on 2015-September-17, 09:08, said:

Are you playing strong jump overcalls, then, and/or direct seat cue of oppo suit is a general force (where it is now more common to show a 2-suiter)? For those (frankly the majority) who do not play those methods, double is the first move on such hands (including a balanced NT overcall that is too strong for immediate 1N). Is a double followed by new suit/NT a redundant set of sequences in your methods?

I think you owe some thanks to fourdad, for pointing out a popular treatment worthy of consideration, even it was not your style at the time.

As Cheers decided to delete my response to his lack of gratitude (LOL( it is apparent he is not interested in discussing any way but his way.

[fourdad]

Let me try this again...I keep replying to a particular posts and they are not showing up.

Your description of a TOX is PARTIALLY correct.....it is, as you describe, an opening hand with support for the unbid suits...........OR....

A BETTER than opening hand (16+) of ANY shape planning to bid again.

In this case, if you DBL then show spades it will be easy to stop in 4S!!

This is what your partner was playing. The real issue is that you had no partnership agreement in this area.

Neither YOUR way or HIS way are the ONLY ways.

[Vampyr]

fourdad, on 2015-September-18, 04:54, said:

As Cheers decided to delete my response to his lack of gratitude (LOL( it is apparent he is not interested in discussing any way but his way.

I don't see how Cheers can delete your messages unless he has told a moderator that they are mean. I haven't seen anything particularly mean in what you have written.

fourdad, on 2015-September-18, 05:24, said:

Let me try this again...I keep replying to a particular posts and they are not showing up.

Your description of a TOX is PARTIALLY correct.....it is, as you describe, an opening hand with support for the unbid suits...........OR....

A BETTER than opening hand (16+) of ANY shape planning to bid again.

In this case, if you DBL then show spades it will be easy to stop in 4S!!

This is what your partner was playing. The real issue is that you had no partnership agreement in this area.

Neither YOUR way or HIS way are the ONLY ways.

Perhaps not, but of course doubling and then showing a GOSH is very basic bidding in any system.

And on this hand, I particularly like doubling because it doesn't lose the hearts.

[Zelandakh]

Vampyr, on 2015-September-18, 05:39, said:

Perhaps not, but of course doubling and then showing a GOSH is very basic bidding in any system.

This is the point Stephanie, the OP seems to think that this is not part of standard bidding and that she is more grounded in the basics than she really is.

[Vampyr]

Zelandakh, on 2015-September-18, 05:44, said:

This is the point Stephanie, the OP seems to think that this is not part of standard bidding and that she is more grounded in the basics than she really is.

Yes I know. It's just that fourdad seemed to indicate that this was not the only way to bid, but it really is. It is not helpful to give OP the impression that there is much of a choice about the matter unless she and a partner want to develop a highly non-standard system.

[cheers OvO]

Oh fourdad, nobody deserved to accept your comments fully. You needed to be more open-minded and try a little humility when you couldn't explain your way well. The double could be better description of my hand than an overcall not because I wouldn't get so high and probably get 4S. By other ways discussed above, I would still get 4S so long as I read 3S correctly. So in fact you failed to give a full reason. Please take a look at what Stephen Tu said "The scenario you are avoiding by doubling rather than overcalling is 1d-(1s)-all pass when you have game on. Because a one level overcall can be rather weak (7/8 pts), responder is not going to respond with all 6/7/8 counts like he would if you had opened the bidding, because it's dangerous to jack up the bidding on a possible misfit when both players aren't very strong. Responder might have a 2524 7 count and have no sensible bid over 1s other than pass, and then you have missed 4."

Now I give more thanks to 1eyedjack for reminding me michael, Stephen Tu for the reason of double, awkhoo for this comment "At unfavorable (vulnerability), without any singletons, 3♠ is a little risky, so I might only bid 2."

[Vampyr]

cheers OvO, on 2015-September-18, 08:14, said:

Oh fourdad, nobody deserved to accept your comments fully. You needed to be more open-minded and try a little humility when you couldn't explain your way well.

If you felt that fourdad didn't explain his everyone's use of takeout doubles, it is probably because, as mentioned by a poster above, you are less familiar than he thought with basic bidding methods.

[cheers OvO]

Vampyr, on 2015-September-18, 08:27, said:

If you felt that fourdad didn't explain his everyone's use of takeout doubles, it is probably because, as mentioned by a poster above, you are less familiar than he thought with basic bidding methods.

Oh Vampyr, you seemed not to check all comments carefully. He kept indicating that I was wrong to ignore the double he considered the best bid just because I wouldn't get too high. But the reason was far away from that because, as I have said above, other ways posted above wouldn't go too far, either. And I got the risky contract mainly due to my misunderstanding on 3S. Also as you mentioned, he failed to explain why doubleton clubs would be accepted while Stephen Tu provided a situation to show why it's still agreeable. After I asked for constructive advices and then he couldn't fully prove his better way of bidding, he was not so good a teacher as he thought but was still another learner here.
If one wants more respect from others, he shall do something more respectable. My attitude is obvious, "no arrogance with ignorance otherwise you deserve no respect."

[Stephen Tu]

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I was reminded some prefer 2D with nice highers like my AKxxx AKxx although michael plays at least 5-5 generally.

cheers OvO, on 2015-September-18, 08:14, said:

Now I give more thanks to 1eyedjack for reminding me michael

Nobody was recommending starting with a michaels cue bid ((1♦)-2♦), you are misreading his post. He said "direct seat cue of oppo suit is a general force (where it is now more common to show a 2-suiter)?". He was suggesting that restricting takeout doubles to solely "support all unbid suit" hands was only sensible if playing strong jump overcalls or playing the direct cue as some generally strong hand, NOT using the direct cue as michaels. He was suggesting 2♦ only if you had an uncommon agreement of NOT playing michaels.

Michaels with this hand is rather poor because it is supposed to be normally 5-5, and it is hard to know what to do if partner supports hearts; correcting to spades would suggest 6-5. Meanwhile you have the perfectly sensible alternative of double first then bid spades if partner bids clubs/NT. Using Michaels with 4-5 hands, 4 spades 5 hearts, is a common expert tactic, usually with 4=5=2=2 or 4=5=3=1, with *weaker* hands, good spades, not wanting to overcall 1♥ and potentially losing the spade suit. With a weaker hand, it's not possible to double then bid hearts over clubs, because that would then be an overbid. With 4=5=1=3, typically one still overcalls 1♥ because one can double over a 2♦ raise and not mind if partner bids clubs. Using Michaels with 5=4 spades/hearts is less advisable because usually one is either strong enough to double first, or one can try 1♠ first and 2♥ later (if sensible) giving partner a correct view of the relative suit lengths. 1♥ followed by 2♠ is less palatable because of the reverse forcing a preference at the 3 level.

[Stephen Tu]

cheers OvO, on 2015-September-18, 10:39, said:

If one wants more respect from others, he shall do something more respectable. My attitude is obvious, "no arrogance with ignorance otherwise you deserve no respect."

I think what you are missing is that it is your initial reply to his post that seems disrespectful/arrogant, dismissing his suggestion of starting with double, saying that it shows support for all 3 suits and that this is something one learns as a beginner. When in fact this is a showing an incomplete understanding of takeout doubles by you, not him.

His reasoning that not doubling was the reason you got too high is suspect, but your post is the one that comes off as arrogant, not his, saying that double is not an option and that one should learn that as a beginner.

[helene_t]

Cheers ovo,

I really think this thread can be very fruitful for you if you read the replies with an open mind. You will learn two important things: that your hand was to strong for an overcall and that partners 3sp bid is normally understood as weak.

A third point: it is rude to comment on dummy using multiple question marks.

[cheers OvO]

I was reminded with michael not because he suggested it but due to his words "2-suited". I have seen in a vulgraph match a national player used michael with good 5-4 highers which I remembered was a little weaker than my AKQXX AKXX. The pholosophy of this way is that greater suits with greater hcp can compensate the shorter highers. So I don't know if your comments are recommended by real experts. But at least you always gave a full reason, not like fourdad just to dig who is wrong but couldn't provide constructive explanation. And helene_t, please notice my initial question before criticizing willfully just because I didn't give more thanks to you !

[helene_t]

As far as I can see you didn't ask any questions (other than the one about what East should bid and I have answered that in case you care), you just said that you wanted to listen to constructive advice. And you got constructive advice so hopefully you will listen to it.

No need to thank me since I am just repeating what others have said already.

[steve2005]

Vampyr, on 2015-September-16, 21:28, said:

Yes, there would usually be some overlap, as with four spades you can't bid 3 with 6- points and cuebid with 10+ only.

And also of course you might bid 2♠ with 4 trumps and a flat hand, or with fewer than 6 points.

Have to agree. I think this is a 2♠ bid. No singleton, no trump honor and a side ace which will be just as useful on defense.

But you need to teach to partner that with a limit raise or better you cue=bid (unless you have agreed to some artificial raise). This is so useful whether opening or overcalling. Otherwise you get the typical novice bidding of 1♠-4♠ with a big hand and you will be missing slams.

[1eyedjack]

steve2005, on 2015-September-18, 17:55, said:

Have to agree. I think this is a 2♠ bid. No singleton, no trump honor and a side ace which will be just as useful on defense.

I would not want to defend at the 3 level, however useful my ace may be, and I would prefer that oppo made their last guess with minimal space

[Vampyr]

steve2005, on 2015-September-18, 17:55, said:

Have to agree. I think this is a 2♠ bid. No singleton, no trump honor and a side ace which will be just as useful on defense.

Agree? With me? I would have bid 3♠.