[ldrews]

 Winstonm, on 2017-June-05, 18:26, said:

Early presidency; late life. He has earned all the condemnation he receives.

Trump appears to be assiduously keeping most of his campaign promises to the extent that he can personally do so. No politician in my memory has been as dedicated to that. The major one he has not kept is putting Clinton in jail.

If you do not agree/like his campaign promises then naturally you do not like or approve of Trump. You would be one of those that, on seeing Trump walk on water, would report that apparently Trump can't swim.

Mind you, Trump is not suave, sophisticated, politically correct. He is, in many ways, an adolescent. But damn, he is shaking things up, renegotiating bad and questionable deals, and generally making everyone else get off their position and change. Look at what is happening in Europe and NATO.

[Winstonm]

 ldrews, on 2017-June-05, 20:18, said:

Trump appears to be assiduously keeping most of his campaign promises to the extent that he can personally do so. No politician in my memory has been as dedicated to that. The major one he has not kept is putting Clinton in jail.

If you do not agree/like his campaign promises then naturally you do not like or approve of Trump. You would be one of those that, on seeing Trump walk on water, would report that apparently Trump can't swim.

Mind you, Trump is not suave, sophisticated, politically correct. He is, in many ways, an adolescent. But damn, he is shaking things up, renegotiating bad and questionable deals, and generally making everyone else get off their position and change. Look at what is happening in Europe and NATO.

My view has nothing to do with his politics but with him as a person.

[RedSpawn]

 ldrews, on 2017-June-05, 20:18, said:

Trump appears to be assiduously keeping most of his campaign promises to the extent that he can personally do so. No politician in my memory has been as dedicated to that. The major one he has not kept is putting Clinton in jail.

If you do not agree/like his campaign promises then naturally you do not like or approve of Trump. You would be one of those that, on seeing Trump walk on water, would report that apparently Trump can't swim.

Mind you, Trump is not suave, sophisticated, politically correct. He is, in many ways, an adolescent. But damn, he is shaking things up, renegotiating bad and questionable deals, and generally making everyone else get off their position and change. Look at what is happening in Europe and NATO.

http://www.foxnews.c...ablishment.html

Trump may behave like an impetuous adolescent bully, but he is also a long overdue reality check for a deeply entrenched, stubborn political establishment.

Click link for additional information.

[cherdano]

 ldrews, on 2017-June-05, 20:18, said:

Trump appears to be assiduously keeping most of his campaign promises to the extent that he can personally do so. No politician in my memory has been as dedicated to that. The major one he has not kept is putting Clinton in jail.

I agree especially on healthcare. The legislation endorsed by Trump, and the budget released by his budget director, studiously do the exact opposite of what he promised in the campaign. (Cover more people, with more affordable premiums and less co-pays. No cuts to Medicaid.)

[Zelandakh]

 RedSpawn, on 2017-June-05, 23:40, said:

http://www.foxnews.c...ablishment.html

What I saw at this link is a Fox News video pointing out that Trump lies openly and without any thought of retraction for even the most ridiculous claims and an article pointing out that voters do not trust politicians and that the GOP can use this to manipulate the electorate. So I am not quite sure what the point is - everyone here knows that Trump lies more than pretty much any other politician in living memory and that political parties are happy to manipulate people in order to obtain power.

[y66]

You have to give Trump credit for his assiduity on the swamp draining front:

Quote

Three months after President Trump abruptly fired half of the nation’s 93 United States attorneys, following the resignations of the other half, he has yet to replace a single one.

It’s bizarre — and revealing — that a man who called himself the “law and order candidate” during the 2016 campaign and spoke of “lawless chaos” in his address to Congress would permit such a leadership vacuum at federal prosecutors’ offices around the country. United States attorneys are responsible for prosecuting terrorism offenses, serious financial fraud, public corruption, crimes related to gang activity, drug trafficking and all other federal crimes.

From Where Are the United States Attorneys?

[y66]

This is somewhat interesting:

Quote

Our study suggests that political belief polarization may emerge because of peoples’ conflicting desires, not their conflicting beliefs per se. This is rather troubling, as it implies that even if we were to escape from our political echo chambers, it wouldn’t help much. Short of changing what people want to believe, we must find other ways to unify our perceptions of reality.

From You’re Not Going to Change Your Mind

Thread over.

[RedSpawn]

 Zelandakh, on 2017-June-06, 02:52, said:

What I saw at this link is a Fox News video pointing out that Trump lies openly and without any thought of retraction for even the most ridiculous claims and an article pointing out that voters do not trust politicians and that the GOP can use this to manipulate the electorate. So I am not quite sure what the point is - everyone here knows that Trump lies more than pretty much any other politician in living memory and that political parties are happy to manipulate people in order to obtain power.

What I saw is larger than that....

1) Hey Democrats we know the Democratic National Committee (DNC) loaded the political dice in Hillary's favor and to the detriment of Bernie Sanders. We know the DNC rigged the nomination process to the Presidency.

2) Hey Republicans we know your platform is falling apart since the white working poor, the white middle, and white lower-middle class now realize their interests (job creation in the local economy and protection of local jobs by tough enforcement on illegal immigration) are usually sold out to lobbyists and special interests.

Also, keep in mind that the brand of Republican fiscal conservatism is dead on arrival courtesy of George W. Bush who ballooned the federal debt by over 100% from $5.5 trillion to $11.0 trillion and left a f%&(ed up economy in the wake of his departure courtesy of the 2008 housing bubble crash. So enter the Tea Party movement which wants smaller government and a reduction in the federal debt levels.

The main problem is the political elite on both sides think their electorate is a bunch of know-nothings and the electorate KNOWS that the political elite are a bunch of do-nothings!

So enter Trump the mercurial, anti-establishment candidate whose frankness though crass, intolerant and politically incorrect is a breath of fresh air in a field of dog whistlers, liars and do-nothings. You never have to wonder what Trump is thinking. He shares infamous tweets that no other career politician dare make. Trump doesn't stick to script and creates his own reality which angers those who feel it is their job to control the narrative.

Trump doesn't play nice and turned the political game of Presidential politics on its head. He proved all of his naysayers wrong about how retail politics work at the national level. He graduated from carnival barker and snake oil salesman Trump to President Trump.

Now the political elite want the fruits of his labor (position and power) without doing all of the leg work (campaigning and winning the election). So enter the road to impeachment story line.....

Trump is a wild card. Game masters who are used to controlling the political game do not like surprises. And they definitely don't like wild cards disturbing the balance of power in politics.

[PassedOut]

Trump gets great Intel every day: Top-Secret NSA Report Details Russian Hacking Effort Days Before 2016 Election

Quote

Russian military intelligence executed a cyberattack on at least one U.S. voting software supplier and sent spear-phishing emails to more than 100 local election officials just days before last November’s presidential election, according to a highly classified intelligence report obtained by The Intercept.

The top-secret National Security Agency document, which was provided anonymously to The Intercept and independently authenticated, analyzes intelligence very recently acquired by the agency about a months-long Russian intelligence cyber effort against elements of the U.S. election and voting infrastructure. The report, dated May 5, 2017, is the most detailed U.S. government account of Russian interference in the election that has yet come to light.

It's so disastrous for people to learn that secret that the leaker has been identified and arrested: Intelligence Contractor Is Charged in First Leak Case Under Trump

Quote

The Justice Department announced the case against the contractor, Reality Leigh Winner, 25, about an hour after the national-security news outlet The Intercept published the apparent document, a May 5 intelligence report from the National Security Agency.

The report described two cyberattacks by Russia’s military intelligence unit, the G.R.U. — one in August against a company that sells voter registration-related software and another, a few days before the election, against 122 local election officials. The Intercept said the N.S.A. report had been submitted anonymously. But shortly after its article was published, the Justice Department said that the F.B.I. had arrested Ms. Winner at her house in Augusta, Ga., on Saturday. It also said she had confessed to an agent that she had printed out a May 5 intelligence file and mailed it to an online news outlet.

Looks like the hacker wasn't some guy in a New Jersey bedroom on his laptop after all. What a surprise!

And it seems that the source was not "made up" either--you can't put a "made up" source in jail...

[Winstonm]

 RedSpawn, on 2017-June-06, 05:15, said:

What I saw is larger than that....

1) Hey Democrats we know the Democratic National Committee (DNC) loaded the political dice in Hillary's favor and to the detriment of Bernie Sanders. We know the DNC rigged the nomination process to the Presidency.

2) Hey Republicans we know your platform is falling apart since the white working poor, the white middle, and white lower-middle class now realize their interests (job creation in the local economy and protection of local jobs by tough enforcement on illegal immigration) are usually sold out to lobbyists and special interests.

Also, keep in mind that the brand of Republican fiscal conservatism is dead on arrival courtesy of George W. Bush who ballooned the federal debt by over 100% from $5.5 trillion to $11.0 trillion and left a f%&(ed up economy in the wake of his departure courtesy of the 2008 housing bubble crash. So enter the Tea Party movement which wants smaller government and a reduction in the federal debt levels.

The main problem is the political elite on both sides think their electorate is a bunch of know-nothings and the electorate KNOWS that the political elite are a bunch of do-nothings!

So enter Trump the mercurial, anti-establishment candidate whose frankness though crass, intolerant and politically incorrect is a breath of fresh air in a field of dog whistlers, liars and do-nothings. You never have to wonder what Trump is thinking. He shares infamous tweets that no other career politician dare make. Trump doesn't stick to script and creates his own reality which angers those who feel it is their job to control the narrative.

Trump doesn't play nice and turned the political game of Presidential politics on its head. He proved all of his naysayers wrong about how retail politics work at the national level. He graduated from carnival barker and snake oil salesman Trump to President Trump.

Now the political elite want the fruits of his labor (position and power) without doing all of the leg work (campaigning and winning the election). So enter the road to impeachment story line.....

Trump is a wild card. Game masters who are used to controlling the political game do not like surprises. And they definitely don't like wild cards disturbing the balance of power in politics.

I couldn't disagree more with your conclusions.

As I see it, the problems we are having is that as a nation we have confused politics with religion and are involved in a fight to move the country away from secular government toward Christian theocracy. A big part of this problem stems from the inclusion of social-conservative principles into political platforms, making faith-based systems dependent upon voting for the party that best supports that faith.

This leads to extremism. The Tea Party and their holier-than-thou cause as they proclaim My way is the way, the truth, and the light, and he who is not with me is against me is a prime example of this extremism .

Donald Trump is just the latest iteration of a televangelist candidate who spews lies to the faithful in order to capitalize on their emotions. This is not the first time in the U.S. that populist movements have arisen. When the middle to lower classes have endured extreme hardships, populism has taken root. It is not the first time the U.S. electorate made a massive mistake in the choice of president.

Donald Trump is a human piece of slime who conned his way to the top office to gratify his own ego. He has nothing to offer and is totally incapable of handling the demands of the office he now holds, nor has he anything to offer from the bully pulpit but more faith-based hate speech that the world at large refuses to hear. The affect of this is to destabilize the basis for inter-country cooperation.

This is the price we pay when we allow religion to slowly creep into our government institutions. This is what Christian theocracy looks like. It is ugly and hate-filled and unforgiving.

[ldrews]

 Winstonm, on 2017-June-06, 08:09, said:

I couldn't disagree more with your conclusions.

As I see it, the problems we are having is that as a nation we have confused politics with religion and are involved in a fight to move the country away from secular government toward Christian theocracy. A big part of this problem stems from the inclusion of social-conservative principles into political platforms, making faith-based systems dependent upon voting for the party that best supports that faith.

This leads to extremism. The Tea Party and their holier-than-thou cause as they proclaim My way is the way, the truth, and the light, and he who is not with me is against me is a prime example of this extremism .

Donald Trump is just the latest iteration of a televangelist candidate who spews lies to the faithful in order to capitalize on their emotions. This is not the first time in the U.S. that populist movements have arisen. When the middle to lower classes have endured extreme hardships, populism has taken root. It is not the first time the U.S. electorate made a massive mistake in the choice of president.

Donald Trump is a human piece of slime who conned his way to the top office to gratify his own ego. He has nothing to offer and is totally incapable of handling the demands of the office he now holds, nor has he anything to offer from the bully pulpit but more faith-based hate speech that the world at large refuses to hear. The affect of this is to destabilize the basis for inter-country cooperation.

This is the price we pay when we allow religion to slowly creep into our government institutions. This is what Christian theocracy looks like. It is ugly and hate-filled and unforgiving.

And quite unlike your position.

[RedSpawn]

 Winstonm, on 2017-June-06, 08:09, said:

I couldn't disagree more with your conclusions.

As I see it, the problems we are having is that as a nation we have confused politics with religion and are involved in a fight to move the country away from secular government toward Christian theocracy. A big part of this problem stems from the inclusion of social-conservative principles into political platforms, making faith-based systems dependent upon voting for the party that best supports that faith.

This leads to extremism. The Tea Party and their holier-than-thou cause as they proclaim My way is the way, the truth, and the light, and he who is not with me is against me is a prime example of this extremism .

Donald Trump is just the latest iteration of a televangelist candidate who spews lies to the faithful in order to capitalize on their emotions. This is not the first time in the U.S. that populist movements have arisen. When the middle to lower classes have endured extreme hardships, populism has taken root. It is not the first time the U.S. electorate made a massive mistake in the choice of president.

Donald Trump is a human piece of slime who conned his way to the top office to gratify his own ego. He has nothing to offer and is totally incapable of handling the demands of the office he now holds, nor has he anything to offer from the bully pulpit but more faith-based hate speech that the world at large refuses to hear. The affect of this is to destabilize the basis for inter-country cooperation.

This is the price we pay when we allow religion to slowly creep into our government institutions. This is what Christian theocracy looks like. It is ugly and hate-filled and unforgiving.

I am suggesting that Trump is neither virtuous nor malevolent, but somewhere in between. I am not exactly sure where on that spectrum he is. But as this political melodrama plays out, I might have a better assessment. Trump may be a piece of slime and a liar. He may not be.

Question: Is Former President Bill Clinton a piece of slime and/or liar? When a sitting President can point a sanctimonious finger at the nation and say to the camera, “I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky.” That's bold. His wife and sitting Vice President was in that press conference, and maybe, just maybe he forgot the truth in that moment, but he sold us a false bill of goods. He sold that lie with such swagger and unabashed confidence that most initially believed his narrative. But that is what successful politicians do! They double down on lies when they think they can get away with it.

My contention is all politicians lie when it matters (and some do it when it doesn't even matter). They're human beings, of flesh and blood, and will fall short of the glory. I think we have to be careful when we take our Puritan history and sensibilities and apply them to the dirty politics of the D.C. establishment. Let he that is without sin, cast the 1st stone. Almost all of our politicians are sinful in one way or another; it's a matter of choosing among the lesser evils.

[RedSpawn]

 Winstonm, on 2017-June-06, 08:09, said:

I couldn't disagree more with your conclusions.

As I see it, the problems we are having is that as a nation we have confused politics with religion and are involved in a fight to move the country away from secular government toward Christian theocracy. A big part of this problem stems from the inclusion of social-conservative principles into political platforms, making faith-based systems dependent upon voting for the party that best supports that faith.

This leads to extremism. The Tea Party and their holier-than-thou cause as they proclaim My way is the way, the truth, and the light, and he who is not with me is against me is a prime example of this extremism .

This is the price we pay when we allow religion to slowly creep into our government institutions. This is what Christian theocracy looks like. It is ugly and hate-filled and unforgiving.

With respect to the Tea Party movement:

This is what I picked up from https://www.teapartypatriots.org/

Quote

We are most free when the Constitution is followed and each branch of government serves as a check and balance to the others. We are a nation of written laws. One law for all and equal application of the law is a founding principle that distinguishes America from the lands immigrants fled to escape oppression. No American President, Republican or Democrat, should ever go around the Constitution, no matter how important the issue. No government entity is above the law, and no public official may act outside or above the law. Yet, we have seen that Washington has a reckless disregard for the rule of law and balance of powers.

When our leaders pick and choose which elements of the laws they choose to enact or grant waivers and exemptions to groups of their choice, they undercut the Constitution and demonstrate to us their belief that laws do not apply to them, and that they think they are different from the citizens who elect them. When government leaders lose the public’s trust, we will exercise our right to be outspoken, and to vote, and to say “No More.”

The government has become too big and too powerful and many of those in Washington have grown out of touch with the citizens they represent. We recognize the government is slowly taking away basic freedoms we each deserve. For instance, every American deserves the freedom to make a phone call and send an email without the government monitoring what we say and write. Every American should have the right to choose our own doctor and which insurance plan we want to purchase without the government penalizing us for not purchasing something we do not want or need. Washington continues to pass laws taking even more freedoms away. Americans sense a freedom gap, between how we value freedom and how free we actually feel today, with an elevated sense that the American Dream is becoming harder to reach.

We support policies that protect and defend personal freedom and individual rights, and the ability to pursue the American Dream without government intrusion. We also support policies that will reclaim those freedoms and rights that have been eroded through intrusive policies of unaccountable politicians and Washington bureaucrats, many of whom answer to special interests and lobbyists rather than their electorate.

We believe that our freedom is America’s greatest strength, and that any policy or action that restricts or erodes that strength is detrimental to the potential and growth of our country.

I am not seeing the religious zealotry in their vision statement here.

or from http://www.teaparty-platform.com/

Quote

Preamble: The Tea Party Movement is an all-inclusive American grassroots movement with the belief that everyone is created equal and deserves an equal opportunity to thrive in these United States where they may “pursue life, liberty and happiness” as stated in the Declaration of Independence and guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States. No one is excluded from participation in the Tea Party Movement. Everyone is welcomed to join in seeking to achieve the Tea Party Movement goals, which are as follows:

1. Eliminate Excessive Taxes
2. Eliminate the National Debt
3. Eliminate Deficit Spending
4. Protect Free Markets
5. Abide by the Constitution of the United States
6. Promote Civic Responsibility
7. Reduce the Overall Size of Government
8. Believe in the People
9. Avoid the Pitfalls of Politics - American politics is burdened by big money from lobbyists and special interests with an undue influence on the peoples’ representatives. The Tea Party movement is seen as a threat to the entrenched political parties and thus is the continual target of smear campaigns and misrepresentation of its ideals. We choose not to respond to these attacks except to strongly and explicitly disavow any and all hate speech, any and all violence as well as insinuations of violence, and any and all extreme and fringe elements that bring discredit to the Tea Party Movement. We are a peaceful movement and respect other's opinions and views even though they do not agree with our own. We stand by the Tea Party beliefs and goals and choose to focus our energies on ensuring that our government representatives do the same.
10. Maintain Local Independence - The strength and resilience of a grassroots movement is the ability of citizens at the local level to determine their own platforms, agendas and priorities free of an overriding central leadership. Exercising the clearly stated message of the Tea Party movement by its nature involves discourse about which policies and candidates best hold to our stated principles, and these various opinions should flourish and evolve at the local level.

I just don't see the religious zealotry here. Now if zealots co-opt their rallies, that is a whole different can of worms!

[RedSpawn]

 y66, on 2017-June-06, 04:12, said:

You have to give Trump credit for his assiduity on the swamp draining front:


From Where Are the United States Attorneys?

Agreed.

http://www.nytimes.c...rosecutors.html

Can someone fact check the media response when Former President Bill Clinton and Former Attorney General Janet Reno did the same thing in 1993.

Or is that a different kind of firing?

[Winstonm]

 RedSpawn, on 2017-June-06, 10:29, said:

With respect to the Tea Party movement:

This is what I picked up from https://www.teapartypatriots.org/


I am not seeing the religious zealotry in their vision statement here.

or from http://www.teaparty-platform.com/

I just don't see the religious zealotry here. Now if zealots co-opt their rallies, that is a whole different can of worms!

Let me help you see it by reducing the statement of the Tea Party Patriots org and comparing it to a Christian belief:

Quote

We are most free when the Constitution what we believe about (x,z, or z) is followed.
I am the way, the truth, and the life.

Now do you see the similarities? Zealots are zealots, regardless of the trappings.

[Winstonm]

double post

[Winstonm]

 RedSpawn, on 2017-June-06, 10:55, said:

Agreed.

http://www.nytimes.c...rosecutors.html

Can someone fact check the media response when Former President Bill Clinton and Former Attorney General Janet Reno did the same thing in 1993.

Or is that a different kind of firing?

It doesn't take a fact check to know that Clinton's actions of graduated firings and graduated replacing of U.S. attorneys is as foreign to Trump's action as a surgical drone strike is to the Germans' blitzkriegs.

[Winstonm]

 ldrews, on 2017-June-06, 08:43, said:

And quite unlike your position.

Quite. I try my best to rely on evidence and not faith.

[RedSpawn]

 Winstonm, on 2017-June-06, 11:08, said:

It doesn't take a fact check to know that Clinton's actions of graduated firings and graduated replacing of U.S. attorneys is as foreign to Trump's action as a surgical drone strike is to the Germans' blitzkriegs.

The article states that Former Attorney General Janet Reno asked for the prompt resignation of all U.S. attorneys thus disrupting the graduated replacements one would have expected. She wanted ALL Republican US attorneys gone promptly as in resignation effective in a matter of days; there was no graduated replacement schedule. Plus, she asked for all 93 resignations while Sessions wanted 46 to resign.

Curiouser and curiouser....

Please double check the NY Times article and my assertion and tell me where you see a "graduated firing". Thanks.

[blackshoe]

On taxes: Just a suggestion, but...

Each citizen or resident alien (or illegal alien?) pays 2% (pick a different number if you like, but keep it low) of gross income (defined as all income - no exceptions) to his or her local government (I suggest county or equivalent). The local government pays 2% of its gross revenue to the state. The state pays 2% of its gross revenue to the federal government. If at any governmental level there remains an excess after reasonable expenses (including, possibly, some kind of "rainy day" fund) the excess is distributed back down to the next lower level (iteratively if that results in an excess at the lower level). Governments at all levels should be limited in what they can do with this revenue (no "Social Security" schemes, for example).

The devil is in the details of course, and if I can come up with a simple scheme like this no doubt some politician can come up with a way to use it to further his political power — if we let him.

Add one thing: eliminate sales taxes, or VAT, or whatever. And as long as corporations are considered legal "persons" for any purpose whatsoever, they pay 2% of revenues as well. Okay, that's two things.

This post has been edited by blackshoe: 2017-June-06, 13:13