[eagles123]

MP system is strong NT 5 card major

---

X is interest in penalty.

me and P had a misunderstanding on whether 4s was
- simply to play with a long spade suit
- showing extras and very strong hand
- something else

result = missed slam!

thx,

Eagles

[MrAce]

Not a strong hand with extras for sure. He has 4♥ bid available for this.
He simply likes his chances of getting +620 more than his chances of getting +800 in 3♥. He has good trumps.

[nige1]

MrAce, on 2014-December-23, 05:02, said:

Not a strong hand with extras for sure. He has 4♥ bid available for this.
He simply likes his chances of getting +620 more than his chances of getting +800 in 3♥. He has good trumps.

I like the agreement that with sound values, you pass and pull. immediate actions show weak shapely hands. Immediate jumps just show more shape. What Mr Ace writes seems reasonable, however, if you're sure of your understandings.

• Does partner's double set up a forcing pass? (IMO, Yes).
• Would 3♠ be forcing? (IMO, No unless double was GF).
• Does 4♥ set ♠s as trumps? (Mr Ace implies yes; but, IMO, with the understanding above, it could it show a limited 5044).
• I'm unsure what 3N should mean but 4N might still be RKC.

[MrAce]

nige1, on 2014-December-23, 06:26, said:

I like the agreement that with sound values, you pass and pull. immediate actions show weak shapely hands. Immediate jumps just show more shape. What Mr Ace writes seems reasonable, however, if you're sure of your understandings.

• Does partner's double set up a forcing pass? (IMO, Yes).
• Would 3S be forcing? (IMO, No unless double was GF).
• Does 4H set S as trumps? (Mr Ace implies yes; but, IMO, with the understanding above, it could it show a limited 5044).
• I'm unsure what 3N should mean but 4N might still be RKC.

• Double does not set up a FP, even the thought of it scares me.
• 3♠ is not forcing
• 4♥ of course sets spades as trumps, why would anyone want to commit to 5 level without a guaranteed fit? Why would anyone not want to cooperate with pd's penalty intentions with 5044? Your pd may hold 2533 and some beans, where are you planning to play at 5 level? Assume that you got lucky and found a minor fit, probably 4-4, this suit will either be side suit of cuebidder, or his shortness.

[Jinksy]

I'm curious to hear arguments for and against forcing pass after X. I can imagine a case for each, but can't persuade myself of either.

[mikeh]

This aspect of bidding has long troubled me, and I don't know what the current expert consensus it. I would very much like to see how players like Justin, or Andy, or Frances, or PhilKing, to name a few, play.

My own thoughts are that the initial double should set up a fp scenario, scary tho that can be if one doubles on minimal values. I think playing it other than as announcing both penalty interest and hand ownership puts way too much pressure on opener.

[jillybean]

Double does not set up a forcing pass for me, we use Neil Kimelman's FP definition.
It's likely not perfect and there are other approaches but having an agreement is a lot better than not having one.


Forcing pass (Neil Kimelman)


When your partnership has made a bid that has created a game forcing auction, the opponents cannot play a contract undoubled.
1S (P) 2H (5D)


i) Besides hands where the partnership is in a game forcing auction, forcing pass also applies when one hand opens and the other hand shows at least invitational values.
1S (P) 3D* (5D)

ii) When your partnership bids game, and you are vulnerable versus nonvulnerable opponents.

V vs. NV (P) 1S (2H) 2S (4H) 4S (5H) ?

My partners and I play this is a forcing pass situation. At any other vulnerability it is not. This to me is a reasonable treatment, but may not be universal. The logic behind this agreement is that we should have extra values to bid game with a risk of being doubled for -200, -500 or more, versus 420 for the opponents.

iii) When the opponents preempt and your partnership bids game.
1H (3S) 4H (4S)

[Winstonm]

With the understanding that partner's double of 2S shows an interest in defending, the only thing that makes sense to me with the jump to 4S is a hand that has no interest in defending, a strong offensive hand with lots of distribution and a self-sufficient suit: KQJ10xxx, void, KQJ0xx, x. I would expect partner is only interested in first round controls, and any two aces would be enough to produce slam unless totally unlucky.

PS: My opinion is that if you can't make a forcing pass in this circumstance then the used methods are highly flawed.

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2014-December-23, 14:19, said:

Double does not set up a forcing pass for me, we use Neil Kimelman's FP definition.
It's likely not perfect and there are other approaches but having an agreement is a lot better than not having one.


Forcing pass (Neil Kimelman)


When your partnership has made a bid that has created a game forcing auction, the opponents cannot play a contract undoubled.
1S (P) 2H (5D)


i) Besides hands where the partnership is in a game forcing auction, forcing pass also applies when one hand opens and the other hand shows at least invitational values.
1S (P) 3D* (5D)

ii) When your partnership bids game, and you are vulnerable versus nonvulnerable opponents.

V vs. NV (P) 1S (2H) 2S (4H) 4S (5H) ?

My partners and I play this is a forcing pass situation. At any other vulnerability it is not. This to me is a reasonable treatment, but may not be universal. The logic behind this agreement is that we should have extra values to bid game with a risk of being doubled for -200, -500 or more, versus 420 for the opponents.

iii) When the opponents preempt and your partnership bids game.
1H (3S) 4H (4S)

I am not arguing with Neil's views, tho I don't mean that I agree 100%. However, his rules aren't designed for this kind of situation. IOW, he doesn't discuss this aspect of bidding at all, at least not in the rules you quote.

You need therefore to have a specific discussion about this double of Michaels and the analogous double of an unusual 2N, or for that matter of other situations in which the opps have intervened, and your side's next call is a double that is at least penalty-oriented. For example, your rules will be unrelated to the rules you may have if your side's double is takeout, or support or shows some other specific holding or hand-type. What, for example, would apply if partner opened 1N, and you made a penalty double of an overcall by RHO and LHO ran, and opener passed? Ok, maybe with the prevalence of artificial overcalls and negative doubles this won't often arise, but if it does, what agreements do you have? The NK FP rules you quoted have no application.

If, as I like, the double of the cuebid (in the OP problem) says not only that I have defence but also that I have sufficient values that the hand belongs to us, then subsequent direct passes become forcing. Timo has a different take and I am not saying he is wrong.

However, even agreements like this can become problematic. What if partner opens 1♠, rho bids 2N, minors, we double, and LHO jumps to 4♥! Weird, but if we are looking at 2=2=4=5 minors with nothing in hearts, are we sure we can beat this? Is partner's pass forcing when we hold, say, a 10 count with strength in the minors?

When I took some training from Kokish, many years ago, he gave each member of our 3 partnerships scores, and maybe 100 or more, of auctions, and each partner was to indicate, without consultation with partner, whether a pass in the given situation was forcing or not. We thought we had pretty good working rules, but there were a lot of his sequences where either both of us said 'I dunno' or we went different ways. The devil is very much in the details.

[jallerton]

eagles123, on 2014-December-23, 04:42, said:

MP system is strong NT 5 card major

---

X is interest in penalty.

me and P had a misunderstanding on whether 4s was
- simply to play with a long spade suit
- showing extras and very strong hand
- something else

result = missed slam!

thx,

Eagles

Your first option is closest to the mark, but obviously it has to be a hand not suitable for a 4♠ opener in your style. With the section option you would either bid 4♥ (this sounds like it sets spades with heart shortage) or start with a forcing pass.

[jallerton]

mikeh, on 2014-December-23, 15:41, said:

However, even agreements like this can become problematic. What if partner opens 1♠, rho bids 2N, minors, we double, and LHO jumps to 4♥! Weird, but if we are looking at 2=2=4=5 minors with nothing in hearts, are we sure we can beat this? Is partner's pass forcing when we hold, say, a 10 count with strength in the minors?

I tend to play that these doubles set up a forcing pass for one level only. So if next hand jumps, forcing passes are off. Responder's double implies that we'll often have the values to make 3 of Opener's suit if opener has a minimum but offensive hand, but it does not guarantee the values for game.

If you play double as penalties in the forcing pass auctions, it's well worth discussing with partner whether doubles are still penalties when next hand jumps. I think that take-out from both sides is best.

[jillybean]

mikeh, on 2014-December-23, 15:41, said:

You need therefore to have a specific discussion about this double of Michaels and the analogous double of an unusual 2N,

That's what my partner said when I gave him this problem

While we don't have any specific agreements regarding this auction, under the rules we do have it does not create a FP, although subsequent actions may.
I'm sure there are other sequences that we haven't discussed and aren't covered, I still think having incomplete rules is preferable to none here.

[whereagles]

Seems like 6-7 good spades and a hand ranging from a good min to a so-so 16 or thereabouts with bad controls.

[fc knudde]

I do not agree with the defensive intentions of the double. I would rather play the double as negative. As if overcaller had bid 2!h and not 2!s.
So the double means also !s support, usually a 3 card and some 8 points or stronger.
This meaning of the double influences the meaning of 4 spades of course.
4 spades means: I like to play 4 spades opposite a normal double, I have no defensive intentions against 3 hearts and no slam intentions opposite an average double.