[hihihiji]

Hello all

My partner and I were arguing about whether to use the unusual 2NT when opp opened 1 minor as

1. lowest two suiters
2. another minor + unknown major

i.e. if opp opens 1♦, 2NT means ♣+♥ in 1 and ♣+♥/♠ in 2.



He thinks 1 is better because major is more important, once the auction is preempted by opp we can hardly compete.

e.g. (1♦)-2NT-(5♦) << hard to decide whether to risk the 5 level major.

He suggested to use blue 2 suiters to solve it. (3♣ = ♠+♣)

But I am reluctant to give up 3 ♣ as the preemptive bid so I prefer 2.



Any thoughts?

[mgoetze]

Hi hihihiji, welcome to the forum.

First of all, the default, undiscussed meaning is (1), if that wasn't clear.

Two-suiter bids that actually show which two suits you have are generally more powerful than those that don't, exactly for the reason your partner mentioned.

There are indeed schemes that give up 3♣, the most well known is Ghestem, which over 1♦ has:

2♦ Spades and Clubs
2NT Hearts and Clubs
3♣ Spades and Hearts

The reason they do it this way, rather than the way that your partner suggested, is that partner can never pass, so the overcaller can bid again if he has a very strong hand. Which I consider completely misguided, because beside the fact that I also don't like giving up the natural 3♣, having to go to the 3 level with the most important two-suiter, both majors, is completely awful.

My personal suggestion is: if you have spades and clubs, just bid 1♠. You are much more likely to be able to buy the contract in spades than in clubs, and even if you can't, then you still have a surprise left for the opponents rather than having told them how to play the hand.

[nige1]

Over opponents (1m) e.g. (1♦) a simple playable compromise is:

• 2♦ = CUE. Modified Michaels. ♠ and an unbid (here ♠ and ♥ or ♠ and ♣).
• 2N = UNT. 2 lowest unbid. (here ♣ and ♥)

This is similar to the scheme that many partnerships use over (1M) e.g. over (1♥).

• 2♥ = CUE. Michaels. Unbid major and a minor. (here ♥ and ♦ or ♥ and ♣).
• 2N = UNT. 2 lowest unbid. (here ♣ and ♦).

This allows you to cater for 2-suiters in any of the unbid suits --- and you can develop the auction in familiar ways.

[Vampyr]

nige1, on 2014-October-22, 12:51, said:

• 2♥ = CUE. Michaels. Unbid major and a minor. (here ♥ and ♦ or ♥ and ♣).
• 2N = UNT. 2 lowest unbid. (here ♣ and ♦).

This allows you to cater for 2-suiters in any of the unbid suits

Except for hands with spades

[mgoetze]

nige1, on 2014-October-22, 12:51, said:

2♦ = CUE. Modified Michaels. ♠ and an unbid (here ♠ and ♥ or ♠ and ♣).

Some German and Polish people will actually think this is what you mean when you say you want to play Michaels. A horrible convention, hearts or not is a very important detail.

[nige1]

Ghestem, too has disadvantages, but some prefer its lack of ambiguity. If ambiguity is a major concern, then you'll hate the next suggestion

Over opponents (1♣) that can be bid on 2 or fewer ♣s (e.g. Polish ♣ or 2/1 with 1♦ = 4+ ♦s)...

• 2♣ = CUE. 2-suiter excluding ♥.
• 2N = UNT. 2-suiter including ♥.

Over 2♣ ...

• 2♦ = P/C.
• 2♥ = ASK for other missing suit (i.e. 2N = Black, 2♠ = Minor, 3♣ = Pointy).

Over 2N ...

• 3♣ = P/C
• 3♦ = ASK for transfer to other suit (i.e 3♥ = Major, 3♠ = Round, 3N = Red)..

This caters for all 6 possible 2-suiters.

[mgoetze]

nige1, on 2014-October-22, 17:31, said:

Ghestem, too has disadvantages, but some prefer it is lack of ambiguity. If ambiguity is a major concern, then you'll hate the next suggestion

It's almost as if I didn't actually write my first post in this thread.

[nige1]

Vampyr, on 2014-October-22, 13:20, said:

Except for hands with spades

Thanks, vampyr. Corrected.

[nige1]

According to David Burn, Ghestem is among the Conventions you don't need to know

[Vampyr]

nige1, on 2014-October-23, 09:09, said:

According to David Burn, Ghestem is among the Conventions you don't need to know

He has also defined Ghestem as a device that converts the table result to -800.

[mycroft]

Ghestem is a wonderful convention. However, as played in the real world, it is almost always not allowed due to regulations. Most players of the convention try to argue "forgets", though, and if they do it with a straight face, they frequently get away with it.

Spoiler

It should be obvious, but Just In Case, I'm not being completely serious here...

[hihihiji]

Thanks for all of your comments, they are very helpful.

In fact, we have decided to return to the very basic, i.e. the default meaning of 2NT and Michaels. And for ♠+minor, we just bid 1♠.

Aside from all kinds of conventions I am trying to memorize, I resist to put more burden to my brain.

And in fact, personally I do not like the 2NT/Michaels conventions too much. More often it is providing information to your opponents than getting a contract.

[helene_t]

Vampyr, on 2014-October-23, 09:28, said:

He has also defined Ghestem as a device that converts the table result to -800.

Playing in the Lancashire league, manudude and I once thought we had a very good score when we picked up 1700 on a partscore hand. Unfortunately our teammates also played ghestem and got -1400

[Vampyr]

mycroft, on 2014-October-23, 10:17, said:

Ghestem is a wonderful convention. However, as played in the real world, it is almost always not allowed due to regulations. Most players of the convention try to argue "forgets", though, and if they do it with a straight face, they frequently get away with it.

Spoiler

It should be obvious, but Just In Case, I'm not being completely serious here...

What do you mean by "not allowed by regulation"? I inhabit the real world too, mad I have never heard of a pair being barred from using Ghestem because they forget it too much. Records of this sort are not kept (and if they were it would seem churlish to report the incident while recording 1400 on your scorecard).

[Trinidad]

Vampyr, on 2014-October-26, 18:11, said:

What do you mean by "not allowed by regulation"? I inhabit the real world too, mad I have never heard of a pair being barred from using Ghestem because they forget it too much. Records of this sort are not kept (and if they were it would seem churlish to report the incident while recording 1400 on your scorecard).

In the Netherlands, Ghestem forgets are automatic Misinformation rulings. And there are certainly pairs who are not allowed to play it (since, in practice, their 3♣ overcall shows clubs or the highest unbid).

Rik

[gwnn]

In Romania it is somebow standard that 1m-(2NT) is om+M which I always hated. I would like to know whether p is 5-1 or 1-5 in the majors, thanks!

I also don't like standard Michaels for what it's worth, I used to play
1M-2M=highest two (i.e., diamonds and other major)
1M-2NT=highest and lowest (clubs and other major).
1M-3C=preempt/ijo

We stole it from gnasher btw (although it's not something revolutionary).