[Winstonm]

Interesting read. However, I doubt consolidation of that type if possible with a political base that is highly conservative. This is not snark but simply an observation based on current understandings of the differences in thinking between political liberals versus conservatives. Here is a link to an article about those differences.

[barmar]

The recent Supreme Court decision striking down life without parole for juvenile defenders has brought to a forefront the understanding that teenage brains are still developing, and impulse control is limited.

[Winstonm]

The result of the independent autopsy shows that the shooter either: a) killed in cold blood or b) thought his life was in danger and emptied his revolver.

I cannot imagine #1 to be the case.

[billw55]

 Winstonm, on 2014-August-18, 11:28, said:

The result of the independent autopsy shows that the shooter either: a) killed in cold blood or b) thought his life was in danger and emptied his revolver.

I cannot imagine #1 to be the case.

Not sure how the autopsy shows that. It sounds like false dichotomy to me.

As I understand as of now, two autopsies have been conducted, one by the family of the deceased. Both show four hits to the right arm, and two to the head, all from the front. This strikes me as a very odd distribution of hits, and seemingly not consistent with the model of a (more or less) stationary target and shooter at a moderate distance. I wonder what it means. At the very least, reports of shots from behind are now discredited.

Also, I doubt the police use revolvers. I would expect a semiautomatic service weapon with a magazine of 8-15 shells. Of course I could be wrong.

[Winstonm]

 billw55, on 2014-August-18, 13:15, said:

Not sure how the autopsy shows that. It sounds like false dichotomy to me.

As I understand as of now, two autopsies have been conducted, one by the family of the deceased. Both show four hits to the right arm, and two to the head, all from the front. This strikes me as a very odd distribution of hits, and seemingly not consistent with the model of a (more or less) stationary target and shooter at a moderate distance. I wonder what it means. At the very least, reports of shots from behind are now discredited.

Also, I doubt the police use revolvers. I would expect a semiautomatic service weapon with a magazine of 8-15 shells. Of course I could be wrong.

What third option did you have in mind?

[billw55]

 Winstonm, on 2014-August-18, 15:06, said:

What third option did you have in mind?

There is usually some middle ground. Perhaps Mr. Brown was violent, but the officer's fear was unreasonably high due to racial factors. That might make the shooting unjustified, but still not be the same as "in cold blood". There are reasons that lesser charges than murder exist.

[blackshoe]

The distribution of hits suggests to me that either the officer panicked, or he was very poorly trained. Or, possibly, both.

[mike777]

This past weekend, yes only a couple of days...6 killed in 25 shootings in my old hometown of Chicago.

-------
---
Last Updated Jul 7, 2014 3:00 PM EDT

CHICAGO - Police are dealing with the fallout from some unexpected fireworks over the past few days in Chicago. Eighty-two people were shot, 14 of them fatally, over the long Fourth of July weekend, according to the Chicago Tribune. The string of incidents kicked off in the afternoon on Thursday.

Five of the shootings involved police, reports CBS Chicago, and two male teens were killed by officers in separate incidents
----

[kenberg]

My thought is to acknowledge the limits to what I can figure out while sitting on my back porch watching the finches devouring the cone flowers.
As they (the investigators, not the finches) take testimony, under oath and under subpoena, perhaps, just perhaps, it will become clear.
We know more than we did, I think we know about as much as we can until a thorough investigation is completed.

The dead man, his family, the officer are all entitled to a thorough and a thoroughly fair investigation.

[Winstonm]

 blackshoe, on 2014-August-18, 16:02, said:

The distribution of hits suggests to me that either the officer panicked, or he was very poorly trained. Or, possibly, both.

I think this is most likely right.

[y66]

Good essay this morning by Matt Yglesias about the establishment mindset in Missouri that makes this story so creepy, scary and disturbing. What are the people in Missouri thinking?

[mike777]

Just to back up a minute, police are trained that if they shoot they shoot to kill. They are not trained to shoot one bullet and stop and ask questions. Was the police officer justified in pulling his gun or in shooting his gun is the issue in question. Please note this means if the officer was justified in shooting, a large if, they are justified to kill.
Again keep in mind this all happened in 3 minutes not 3 hours. Fwiw I note in my little town police shot and killed 2 men over the weekend.
--

As to the bigger issue why does the town have only 3 police officers of color or so few people of color with political power? Many seem to think it proves a racist and bias mindset. Why are so many more people of color arrested than white people? For many the answer is racism, not that they are guilty.
-------------


As to the issue of why the police use so much tear gas, rubber bullets and noise grenades the response on CNN was the only other option they have is to use live rounds of fire or do nothing to stop disorder.

[Winstonm]

 y66, on 2014-August-19, 11:00, said:

Good essay this morning by Matt Yglesias about the establishment mindset in Missouri that makes this story so creepy, scary and disturbing. What are the people in Missouri thinking?

I had not noticed the lack of identification on the police. Curiously absent.

[mike777]

btw the police just shot and killed another young black man about 4 miles from Ferguson Mo.

[billw55]

 mike777, on 2014-August-19, 13:07, said:

btw the police just shot and killed another young black man about 4 miles from Ferguson Mo.

The early story is that this man was wielding a knife and refused to surrender. Although as usual, early stories are rarely correct.

[mike777]

NBC news on their 5pm show just reported Mr. Brown is innocent.
----------

I heard this other guy held a knife but that does not justify the govt killing a young man. I hope this is not another blame the victim story.

[Winstonm]

From a Washington Post Op-Ed. This may be the crux of the present matter in Missouri:

Quote

Finally, cops are legally prohibited from using excessive force: The moment a suspect submits and stops resisting, the officers must cease use of force.

[mike777]

 Winstonm, on 2014-August-19, 17:47, said:

From a Washington Post Op-Ed. This may be the crux of the present matter in Missouri:

It appears a plain reading of the law on the cops using deadly force is rather broad in this case. I don't know how case law limits this rather broad use of deadly force in Mo. It is more limited for persons in general but cops seem to have a rather broad usage.
------

Missouri Revised Statutes
Chapter 563
Defense of Justification
Section 563.046

August 28, 2013

Law enforcement officer's use of force in making an arrest.
563.046. 1. A law enforcement officer need not retreat or desist from efforts to effect the arrest, or from efforts to prevent the escape from custody, of a person he reasonably believes to have committed an offense because of resistance or threatened resistance of the arrestee. In addition to the use of physical force authorized under other sections of this chapter, he is, subject to the provisions of subsections 2 and 3, justified in the use of such physical force as he reasonably believes is immediately necessary to effect the arrest or to prevent the escape from custody.

2. The use of any physical force in making an arrest is not justified under this section unless the arrest is lawful or the law enforcement officer reasonably believes the arrest is lawful.

3. A law enforcement officer in effecting an arrest or in preventing an escape from custody is justified in using deadly force only

(1) When such is authorized under other sections of this chapter; or

(2) When he reasonably believes that such use of deadly force is immediately necessary to effect the arrest and also reasonably believes that the person to be arrested

(a) Has committed or attempted to commit a felony; or

(b) Is attempting to escape by use of a deadly weapon; or

© May otherwise endanger life or inflict serious physical injury unless arrested without delay.

4. The defendant shall have the burden of injecting the issue of justification under this section.

(L. 1977 S.B. 60)
Effective 1-1-79

© Copyright


bottom Missouri General Assembly
http://www.moga.mo.g...ATUTES/C563.HTM

[kenberg]

 Winstonm, on 2014-August-19, 17:47, said:

From a Washington Post Op-Ed. This may be the crux of the present matter in Missouri:

From the article that you cited:

Quote

But if you believe (or know) that the cop stopping you is violating your rights or is acting like a bully, I guarantee that the situation will not become easier if you show your anger and resentment. Worse, initiating a physical confrontation is a sure recipe for getting hurt. Police are legally permitted to use deadly force when they assess a serious threat to their or someone else’s life. Save your anger for later, and channel it appropriately. Do what the officer tells you to and it will end safely for both of you. We have a justice system in which you are presumed innocent; if a cop can do his or her job unmolested, that system can run its course. Later, you can ask for a supervisor, lodge a complaint or contact civil rights organizations if you believe your rights were violated. Feel free to sue the police! Just don’t challenge a cop during a stop.

Although we still do not know with precision just what happened, I doubt that it was in conformance with this excellent advice. If Mr. Brown had gotten out of the street when Officer Wilson told him to do so, I expect that he would be alive today and Ferguson would be the anonymous town that it had always been.

The law will now, I hope, follow the evidence and come to the legally correct conclusion, whatever that might be. The writer of the cited article, to his credit, makes no claim of knowing what happened in this specific case.

[Winstonm]

 kenberg, on 2014-August-19, 19:31, said:

From the article that you cited:


Although we still do not know with precision just what happened, I doubt that it was in conformance with this excellent advice. If Mr. Brown had gotten out of the street when Officer Wilson told him to do so, I expect that he would be alive today and Ferguson would be the anonymous town that it had always been.

The law will now, I hope, follow the evidence and come to the legally correct conclusion, whatever that might be. The writer of the cited article, to his credit, makes no claim of knowing what happened in this specific case.

Yes, that is why I posted this like - the article is from a different perspective. It reminded me of another article I read that stated that the most powerful person in the U.S. is not the president but your local police officer. I see that point. Given that much power, we can only hope they are honest and reasonably just.