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Forgetting Transfers 2/1 ACBL

#1 User is offline   dickiegera 

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Posted 2014-July-19, 16:42

Partner and I play lear over opponents 1NT overcall. Partner frequently forgets.

Example : I open 1Diamond and righthand opponent bids 1NT. Partner bids 2 Hearts which is alerted as a transfer. I bid 2 spades.
Partner now bids 3 Hearts. What I am to do? Last time after passing and it passed out I said she always forgets.

What am I suppose to do?

We play lear where 2Hearts is a transfer to Spades

To show both Majors we would bid 2 Clubs as a relay to Diamonds and then bid 2 Hearts showing the majors.

Thank you
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#2 User is offline   RMB1 

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Posted 2014-July-19, 16:55

I don't think you have a problem - you know partner forgets - so explain 2 as natural or a transfer and explain 3 as natural.

Partner has the problem - they intend 2 as natural and when you alert they have unauthorised information - they should treat 2 as natural and they may have had logical alternatives to 3.

In general, if you forget an artificial agreement you should expect a bad score. I would suggest forgetting a convention that partner forget.
Robin

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#3 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2014-July-19, 17:46

View Postdickiegera, on 2014-July-19, 16:42, said:

What am I suppose to do?


Change your system. You should explain what is going on in the situation you describe but seriously, why are you doing this to the partnership?
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#4 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2014-July-19, 18:18

Heres a system
Double big hand at least INV strength
bidding a suit natural non-forcing
jumping in a suit GF, distributional hand
Sarcasm is a state of mind
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#5 User is offline   dickiegera 

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Posted 2014-July-19, 18:22

View Postsfi, on 2014-July-19, 17:46, said:

Change your system. You should explain what is going on in the situation you describe but seriously, why are you doing this to the partnership?




All of partner friends play this and she insist we do.
Everytime we play she goes over the system and says she will not forget.
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#6 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2014-July-19, 19:41

View Postdickiegera, on 2014-July-19, 18:22, said:

All of partner friends play this and she insist we do.
Everytime we play she goes over the system and says she will not forget.

And yet she continues to forget. You have three choices: disclose what you know as the laws require and accept your bad score when the opponents call the TD, talk her into changing your system, or quit playing with her.

Not sure, because I haven't double checked, but I suspect "transfer to spades or natural" is not legal under the GCC. If so eventually the director will penalize you for playing an illegal system.
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#7 User is offline   Antrax 

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Posted 2014-July-19, 23:18

Treat her 2 calls as natural. If she meant it as a transfer, say you forgot the system.
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#8 User is offline   weejonnie 

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Posted 2014-July-20, 03:34

Alert the 2 as transfer but tell the opponents that partner frequently forgets. That way they know as much as you do.

if you don't do that then you have to play the sequence shown (unless you agree with partner that the sequence means that they have forgotton the transfer - nothing wrong with that - but you would have to advise the opponents of the agreement when the 2 bid is made) as showing game-going values in spades. - which means you have to respond to it as such. Mind you, partner should be passing 2 - or giving preference to 3 anyway since they have (as they think) shown hearts and yet you want to play in spades. Why can't you hold

KQJTX

AJ7654
Q3

Once you get a few bottoms in 4 doubled when adjusted by the TD your partner might get the hint.
No matter how well you know the laws, there is always something that you'll forget. That is why we have a book.
Get the facts. No matter what people say, get the facts from both sides BEFORE you make a ruling or leave the table.
Remember - just because a TD is called for one possible infraction, it does not mean that there are no others.
In a judgement case - always refer to other TDs and discuss the situation until they agree your decision is correct.
The hardest rulings are inevitably as a result of failure of being called at the correct time. ALWAYS penalize both sides if this happens.
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#9 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2014-July-23, 10:37

View PostRMB1, on 2014-July-19, 16:55, said:

I don't think you have a problem - you know partner forgets - so explain 2 as natural or a transfer


That is a problem because that's not an ACBL GCC legal convention. Conventional bids over 1N other than X and 2C must guarantee at least one known suit.
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#10 User is offline   biggerclub 

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Posted 2014-July-23, 10:47

This is obviously not a serious partnership. In these cases, I don't impose a system on partner, but rather interview her about what she thinks various bids mean. Then I believe her and play her way.
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#11 User is offline   RMB1 

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Posted 2014-July-23, 10:51

View PostTylerE, on 2014-July-23, 10:37, said:

That is a problem because that's not an ACBL GCC legal convention. Conventional bids over 1N other than X and 2C must guarantee at least one known suit.

Even over a 1NT overcall (as in OP)?

In which case, yes "you" (opener) do have a problem.

I do not recommend calling the TD and saying "we have an illegal agreement/understanding of 2" - so you have to explain and keep bidding as if partner has not forgotten. Then explain to the opponents at the end of the hand that partner forgets but that is not your partnership agreement/understanding.
Robin

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#12 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2014-July-23, 11:34

Applies to overcalls too.
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#13 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2014-July-23, 16:13

View PostRMB1, on 2014-July-23, 10:51, said:

Even over a 1NT overcall (as in OP)?

In which case, yes "you" (opener) do have a problem.

I do not recommend calling the TD and saying "we have an illegal agreement/understanding of 2" - so you have to explain and keep bidding as if partner has not forgotten. Then explain to the opponents at the end of the hand that partner forgets but that is not your partnership agreement/understanding.

That appears to be compounding one breach of the rules - using an illegal agreement - with another one - failing to disclose an agreement at the proper time and in the proper manner.

I thought your first answer was fine, and I don't see why the illegality of the agreement changes your responsibility to disclose it.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#14 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2014-July-24, 11:42

View Postgnasher, on 2014-July-23, 16:13, said:

I thought your first answer was fine, and I don't see why the illegality of the agreement changes your responsibility to disclose it.


Quite. You disclose it, the opponents call the director, and you take your average minus. End of.

Though it might be more fair to disclose the agreement before the round starts, giving the opponents a chance to agree on a defense, so that if they get better than average plus they can keep their score
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#15 User is offline   Siegmund 

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Posted 2014-July-31, 18:26

Quote

Applies to overcalls too.


And you are lucky it does, or even the simple transfer meaning would be illegal, as it is after a natural suit overcall.
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#16 User is offline   Bbradley62 

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Posted 2014-July-31, 19:06

In your system, what is shown by:
1D-(1NT)-2H*-(p)
2S-(p)-3H?

Hopefully, it's 5 spades, 4 hearts and some specified strength range. You bid as though you believe that partner has bid her hand accurately within the parameters of your system.
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#17 User is offline   Bbradley62 

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Posted 2014-July-31, 19:20

View Postdickiegera, on 2014-July-19, 16:42, said:

Partner and I play lear over opponents 1NT overcall.

I can 't find any documentation of this anyway online. Do you have a reference?
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#18 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2014-August-01, 21:54

I would preference to spades, and keep returning to spades on this hand and future hands until I'm sure partner has been conditioned to not forget. Actually, unless the future hands happen in the current event, there probably won't be any future hands.
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#19 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2014-August-02, 01:02

View PostBbradley62, on 2014-July-31, 19:06, said:

In your system, what is shown by:
1D-(1NT)-2H*-(p)
2S-(p)-3H?

Hopefully, it's 5 spades, 4 hearts and some specified strength range. You bid as though you believe that partner has bid her hand accurately within the parameters of your system.

You don't have to do that. As long as you have disclosed your actual two-way agreement and don't misuse any UI, it's fine to pass 3.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#20 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2014-August-02, 08:59

View Postgnasher, on 2014-August-02, 01:02, said:

You don't have to do that. As long as you have disclosed your actual two-way agreement and don't misuse any UI, it's fine to pass 3.


Is that the end of the story? What If the 2-way agreement is not legal in the jurisdiction?
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