[vodkagirl]

What does the 3♥ bid show in the following sequence?

Vulnerability: white-white.

---

I took it to show 5-5 in ♠s and ♥s. Holding a singleton ♥ and a doubleton ♠ I bid 3N.

Was Partner justified in putting us back in ♠s?

All relevant help much appreciated.

[Antrax]

Was 2♦ game forcing? How many diamonds does it promise?
Was 3♣ natural?

[helene_t]

Hi Vodkagirl,

3♥ shows 5-5 if 3♣ was natural. If 3♣ was fourth suit it doesn't absolutely guarantee 5-5, since opener could have for example
AQxxx
KQJx
x
xxx

Even so, opener should think of the 5-5 pattern as having come across since the above hand is a rare exception. So with 5-5 she should normally pass. 4♠ here is almost always based on six spades.

But it will be easier for us to assess if you show us opener's hand

[Zelandakh]

The answer is that it depends. GF non-fit auctions at the 3 level are a special beast in that they typically require a bid that says nothing much and simply deny the ability to do something else. Such bids, known as "gropes", are extremely useful but there is no universal standard as to how they are used. Helene's example is a good example of this. Her agreement is clearly that 3♦ promises some diamond support and that therefore we need to grope 3♥ on hands like this one. Another pair might play that 3♦ is a pure grope simply denying a 5th heart, a 6th spade or a club stop.

As to what was justified or not, well we would need to see the hands - quite possibly both parties misbid. What does strike me is that the 3♣ rebid was almost certainly superfluous and most likely Responder should have gone directly to 3NT. But system is relevant here so we should probably hear what was agreed before going too far along that route.

[vodkagirl]

Sorry folks,

I posted when very tired.

The system was 2/1. With 3♣ I was showing a real suit. Please comment.

Here are the hands:

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Many thanks for the help.

[aguahombre]

Since the questions were asked, we can guess why they were asked and maybe figure out the two hands in the blind.

First, Helene has pretty much nailed the theories.

6-5-1-1 is my guess for Opener's hand, although it didn't necessarily have to even be 5-5 at the time of 3♥.
After 3NT, Opener hoped to find 2-card spade support and "knew" Responder did not have 3 hearts.

Responder probably held an unlucky 1-2-5-5. Oh well

Welcome back, VG. Stick around this time; you might find the posters are more pleasant than before (or not ).

Oops, I misguessed; Looks like you landed on your feet.

[Cyberyeti]

helene_t, on 2014-February-25, 03:25, said:

Hi Vodkagirl,

3♥ shows 5-5 if 3♣ was natural. If 3♣ was fourth suit it doesn't absolutely guarantee 5-5, since opener could have for example
AQxxx
KQJx
x
xxx

Even so, opener should think of the 5-5 pattern as having come across since the above hand is a rare exception. So with 5-5 she should normally pass. 4♠ here is almost always based on six spades.

But it will be easier for us to assess if you show us opener's hand

Interesting, we play 3♠ as the "nothing else to say" bid over the 4th suit so 3♥ is 5-5 for us.

[aguahombre]

Cyberyeti, on 2014-February-25, 12:07, said:

Interesting, we play 3♠ as the "nothing else to say" bid over the 4th suit so 3♥ is 5-5 for us.

That is probably a better idea. But, it might have a ripple effect. Like, when we are in G.F. as here, choosing to rebid 2S with 6 rather than 2H with 6-4...so partner will know when you do bid 3S in the scenario, you are punting.

You don't have the same problem with 6-4 after:

1S-2D
2S-3C...because Responder won't have 4 hearts and will know 3H is a punt.

[vodkagirl]

Looking at some notes I have, I should have rebid 2N not 3♣. 3♣, as a fourth suit, is a 'you tell me where this belongs' bid. It is not forcing in anyway as the 2/1 established the GF.

I am also thinking that Partner should not have put us in 4♠ as I had the chance to do that and passed on it.

[Stephen Tu]

This hand illustrates why it's usually better to bid 2nt holding the 4th suit than to actually bid the 4th suit, which is ambiguous. The extra step actually matters a lot, now 3♥ can guarantee 5-5+ rather than possibly just stuck for a bid, and opener can bid 3nt on a lot of hands not having to worry about a club stop.

I never understand how people playing 2/1 think that "oh we don't need 4th suit artificial because we already are in a GF auction". You pretty much need it especially if you play that a 2♠ preference by responder on this auction guarantees a third spade.

[Stephen Tu]

vodkagirl, on 2014-February-25, 12:38, said:

I am also thinking that Partner should not have put us in 4♠ as I had the chance to do that and passed on it.

But partner hadn't shown a sixth spade yet. Unless you are playing that responder has to bid 3♠ on all hands with doubleton spade over 3♥, never bidding 3nt even when they want to play there given the known information, it's reasonable for the 6-5 hand to believe you belong in spades. Another reason to bid 2nt first, so that you can bid 3♠ later when you aren't insistent on 3nt.

[kuhchung]

What's wrong with a 4S contract?

[Stephen Tu]

kuhchung, on 2014-February-25, 15:43, said:

What's wrong with a 4S contract?

Nothing, but at MP 3nt will very often score better on a likely club lead with East declaring. But I would expect a lot of the field to end in 4♠. OP didn't specify form of scoring though, so it's unclear what the unhappiness is about.

[vodkagirl]

Scoring was IMPs.

Many thanks for all the replies.

The collective wisdom of this forum is formidable.