[eagles123]

---

this is our bidding: 1 down.

my questions are

1) is the bidding ok?

2) How to stay out of an unmakeable slam?

3) how to suggest a heart tolerance after 1H 2D 3D


thanks,

Eagles

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Playing 2/1 GF :
1H - 2D
3D - 3H = announces a double-fit

Now you may want to play 6Ace-RKC ( 4 aces and the 2 red Kings ) .
That way you will find out you are missing 2 of 6 key cards... and stay out of slam.

[mikeh]

There are two cardinal rules for the asking for keycards, both of which were ignored here.

1. Never ask for keycards unless you know, and I mean know, what to do over all possible answers
2. Never ask for keycards with 2 or more fast losers in an uncuebid suit, unless partner has implied or shown a control (say, if you know you hold a combined 34 count or better, you know you are not off the AK, or if his bidding has promised 5431 with the 1 being the suit in question).

The two rules are related in a sense, but they are not the same.

Sometimes one can find out one has all the keycards and simply be unable to count tricks, because one hasn't used an informative or cooperative sequence. Other times, as here, one has no clue. Maybe partner has xxx KQJxx AQxx x. Maybe he has what he had. Maybe he had Jx KQJxx Axxx Qx and even 5 is in jeopardy.

Note that the perfectly reasonable suggestion that responder show hearts doesn't address these problems. It is still foolish (and that is a kind word) to ask for keycards even in a 6 keycard method when one has no f**king idea what to do if he shows an inconvenient number, or even a convenient number.

xx KQxxx AQxx Ax is a pretty good grand. xx Kxxxx AQxx Ax is a hopeless grand (altho a good 6 keycard method would, admittedly, allow one to distinguish between the two).

Bear in mind that my criticism of the keycard ask is only the beginning of the problems I see with this auction.

I'll assume 3♦ promised 4, which is far from universal. I'll assume that 2♦ didn't promise 5 (and I think in standard it doesn't so this isn't a real issue).

Why this urge to take control? Why this instinct that holding 17 or 18 hcp as responder means we make slam?

Bid a quiet 3♥. You will have announced a double fit with at least opening values, and more than a horrible hand, with which you may have jumped to 4♥.

Opener can then cuebid with any hand with any interest at all, bearing in mind that responder is unlimited. With the given hand, I wouldn't cuebid because my hearts are so weak. Give me the same hcp and shape, but move my club K into hearts, and I'd make a move of some kind...probably 3♠, this being one of those rare auctions in which one's first cue can be shortness, since we clearly aren't probing for 3N and partner isn't looking for an honour to fill in a source of tricks in the suit.

Over a drop dead 4♥ West has the world's easiest pass. He has invited opener to indicate if opener has a hand with which he'd cooperate with a slam move...this is an important point...a cuebid by East over 3♥ is not itself a slam move....cuebids below game are more about willingness to cooperate than showing a strong slam interest. Expert pairs can and often do have auctions in which both partners cue and the auction stops at game, because while both partners are willing to cooperate, neither has the values to force beyond game.

Here, West has the values to go beyond game IF opener has the sort of hand that is willing to cooperate, but opposite a hand that is 'bad for slam', as would be shown by opener raising 3♥ to 4♥, responder passes with no fear of missing a good contract.

As an extra point: I do know a couple of experts who play minorwood, but the vast majority of experts of my acquaintance don't, and imo for very good reason.

While this hand could easily have bid a natural 3♥, there are auctions in which responder wants to set trump and ask for cuebids, and that is my preference for (forcing) bids of 4m once the minor is set.

I use kickback, which is basically as effective in saving space as minorwood. Of course, here, 4♥, over 3♦, would usually be played as either a picture bid (2=4=5=2, no black controls) or as a minimum rejecting any notion of slam (my preference). In such cases, the solution is to use the next higher bid....for me, 4♠ would be kickback. Of course, it wouldn't occur to me to use keycard of any flavour.....see where I came in.

Does anybody ever actually pay attention to any posts here, other than to engage in flame wars? Has any expert here ever endorsed the use of keycard in violation of rules 1 and 2? Yet we see experienced posters time and time again posting keycard disasters or suggesting idiotic keycard bids as answers to problems. It really isn't difficult, you know, to learn when to play keycard.

[akwoo]

OP - please explain 1♥ and 2♦ (and, for that matter, the implications of 3♦). I suspect there might be some system issues here. English Acol does quite nicely on many part-scores, but I think it tends to lose on hands like these.

[helene_t]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2014-January-27, 14:05, said:

Playing 2/1 GF :
1H - 2D
3D - 3H = announces a double-fit .

It is not obvious that 3♥ is forcing here playing Acol. Yes I agree it should be forcing but …..

I think W knows that 6♦ won't be a very good slam. We miss ♣A (or ♦A) so E needs a club control and ♥KQ in addition to ♦AQ. Maybe he has a singleton club but opps stayed silent at (for them) favourable vulnerability. In any case 6♥ must have better chances than 6♦, assuming that E has promised five hearts - E might have ♣K to protect against the opening lead. It also pays better at matchpoints.

A problem with bidding 6♥ is that partner could be 4441. So I don't know …. maybe W should just sign off in 4♥.

[mcphee]

Mikeh made fine points about cue bids and key carding. Ask yourselves about making the simple bid of 3H over 3D and how it can't be 100% forcing. What logical sense does it make for it to be NF?

[ahydra]

It took me a while, but I did eventually learn that balanced 17s and 18s are nowhere near as good as they look. Also, on the bidding do you have a way to ask for the DQ over 4S? West should surely have used that, though it wouldn't keep you out of the slam.

Given that 3H is not forcing and 4H seems wimpish (you have to at least invite), I would actually try 3S over 3D and give up on hearts (at least initially). Over the obvious 3NT from East, West now tries either 4D (NAT SI), 4H (cue for diamonds) or 4NT (quantitative). I'd pick 4NT myself to state that I'm looking for slam based on a lot of values rather than fit/shape. East will pass that, as he has no extra values.

This feels rather messy - you can see why 2/1 GF has an advantage on this type of hand. On the other hand, this is yet another place where my 4C/4D convention comes in handy:

1H-2D
3D-3S
3NT-4C = Slam interest in opener's first suit (hearts)

Now East can co-operate with 4D, or sign off in 4H. As Mike said, I think it's right to co-operate initially but pass the 4H return from West.

ahydra

[ahydra]

mcphee, on 2014-January-28, 06:53, said:

Mikeh made fine points about cue bids and key carding. Ask yourselves about making the simple bid of 3H over 3D and how it can't be 100% forcing. What logical sense does it make for it to be NF?

Playing IMPs, I'd agree; you could just play 3D. At MPs however, it makes sense to have a way to invite in hearts. Even playing 5cM the standard way to invite with 3 cards (at least in the UK) is to bid 1S or 2m first then rebid 3M.

ahydra

[helene_t]

I was thinking of the same as adhydra: Responder can bid 3♠ at his second turn.

Now if opener raises spades it looks really good for a diamonds slam because opener has club shortage and if we have a heart loser it can go away on a spade if opener has ♠Jxxx. As it is, opener will bid 3NT which warns us about club vastage and also tells us that we want to be in hearts to protect a possibly ♣K. Responder can take a pessimistic view and just bid 4♥, or maybe
--- 1♥
2♦-3♦
3♠-3NT
5♥-pass

But even 4♥ as West's final bid should show some slam interest so maybe that is enough.

[wank]

you use blackwood to check you're not off 2 aces after you discover you have enough tricks. you don't use it to say i have a good hand and have some vague chances of slam, because it's impossible to verify you have any tricks after using it.

as such using 4m as blackwood, whilst popular with weak players, is almost always a waste of time and space in my opinion. it's pretty rare to already know you have the tricks for slam without having exchanged any cuebids. bids at the 3 level are patterning out/probes for NT, not cuebids on the whole.

and yes 3h should be forcing.

[Cyberyeti]

I agree with most of the comments above about when to cue and when to use Blackwood, what is your Q of trumps ask ? for most people playing Acol, 3♦ wasn't forcing as you could be 11 opposite 10 so if the auction proceeded 1♥-2♦-3♦-4♦-4♠-4N(Q?)-5♣(yes+K♣) you would know you were off an ace, but also partner wouldn't bid 3♦ with ♥KQ, ♣K, ♦Q and an ace if he had anything else even so much as a jack, and even if he has all that, a club lead will be problematic, so it's very unlikely slam is good.

[Zelandakh]

eagles123, on 2014-January-27, 13:19, said:

1) is the bidding ok?
2) How to stay out of an unmakeable slam?
3) how to suggest a heart tolerance after 1H 2D 3D

1. Not really. 4♦ is probably the worst bid possible amongst logical alternatives.
3. How about just bidding them? This sequence has been written up as forcing in Acol since at least the early 80s and probably a lot longer. I am surprised how many BBF Acol posters play it is non-forcing.
2. System matters.
Does the 2♦ response promise a rebid? Is it forcing to 2NT? If you play one of these methods then the normal way of showing a minimum opening with diamond support is to rebid 2♥ and then support diamonds if it still seems like a good idea next time around. This provides some extra space for unwinding everything while also having the effect of limiting the hands better than Standard Acol does. An auction like 1♥ - 2♦; 2♥ - 2♠; 3♦ - 3♥; 3NT - 4♥ is possible here. In any event the kind of descritive auction most Acol variants can only dream of.

If 3♥ over 3♦ really is considered not forcing (seriously, why?) then I cannot see much alternative to 3♠. That is going to lead to a pretty yucky auction, which is the price you pay if you include 2 system holes in the same auction and both come up at the same time. Even that should work out as the auction will surely continue 3NT - 4♥.

Finally, if 1♥ - 2♦; 3♦ - 3♥ is forcing then Opener can now show garbage and all is well with the world.

[Cyberyeti]

Zelandakh, on 2014-January-28, 07:58, said:

Finally, if 1♥ - 2♦; 3♦ - 3♥ is forcing then Opener can now show garbage and all is well with the world.

Opener's hand is not garbage, it just has no idea it's hit the wrong dummy, Axx, AJx, KJ10x, Axx is the same shape and a point weaker than the real hand, but 6 and hook for 7, Axx, AKx, KJ10x, Jxx a point less than that and 6 is excellent, and that's without the 5 card diamond suit that is present 90%+ of the time for many people in an Acol 1♥-2♦ (a lot of people respond 3N with a 13-15 3343).

[helene_t]

wank, on 2014-January-28, 07:18, said:

as such using 4m as blackwood, whilst popular with weak players, is almost always a waste of time and space in my opinion.

It is probably true that experts will either not play minorwood at all or only in some very specific situations. But in a typical club, playing matchpoints, it is not really essential to bid grands, while it is essential to be able to stop in 4NT if one is two kcs short. Kick-back might be better than minorwood but it is too complicated.

My problem with minorwood is not so much that I need 4m to mark time during cuebidding - it takes a lot of time to discuss cue bidding style so I wouldn't worry too much about that. My problem is more that there are sequences in which I would like to bid 4m saying "I still don't know which strain - what do you think about clubs(cq diamonds)?". Then I want partner to be able to bid 4M as an offer to play rather as an answers to minorwood.

[Zelandakh]

Cyberyeti, on 2014-January-28, 09:34, said:

Opener's hand is not garbage

What is your bid for East over 3♥ then?

[Cyberyeti]

Zelandakh, on 2014-January-28, 09:53, said:

What is your bid for East over 3♥ then?

4♣ (3♠ I think would be a stop in traditional Acol as I could be 44 in the reds), I'm in a box of around 10-14 so have a pretty fine hand in that context, I need as little as xxx, AKx, Kxxxx, Ax opposite for slam to be excellent.

[Zelandakh]

Cyberyeti, on 2014-January-28, 10:10, said:

4♣

Ok, so we have
1♥ - 2♦; 3♦ - 3♥; 4♣. Presumably it continues 4♦; 4♥ - 4♠. I guess East can see now that slam comes down only to ♥AK♠A♣A and should ask rather than continue the cue sequence. So stopping in 5 - not ideal but still not fatal on what is a bad pair of hands for the system.

[PhilKing]

Zelandakh, on 2014-January-28, 10:43, said:

Ok, so we have
1♥ - 2♦; 3♦ - 3♥; 4♣. Presumably it continues 4♦; 4♥ - 4♠. I guess East can see now that slam comes down only to ♥AK♠A♣A and should ask rather than continue the cue sequence. So stopping in 5 - not ideal but still not fatal on what is a bad pair of hands for the system.

After 4♣-4♦-4♥ the bidding should end. 4♦ promised a spade control, so partner's sign-off indicates that he probably does not have what you need.

Maybe you miss a decent slam opposite: ♠x ♥KJxxx♦Axxx♣Axx. Personally, I would not sign off with that, and slam is hardly cold.

[mikeh]

Cyberyeti, on 2014-January-28, 09:34, said:

Opener's hand is not garbage, it just has no idea it's hit the wrong dummy, Axx, AJx, KJ10x, Axx is the same shape and a point weaker than the real hand, but 6 and hook for 7, Axx, AKx, KJ10x, Jxx a point less than that and 6 is excellent, and that's without the 5 card diamond suit that is present 90%+ of the time for many people in an Acol 1♥-2♦ (a lot of people respond 3N with a 13-15 3343).

The notion that Axx AJx KJ10x Axx is remotely the same hand as AKQ Axx KJ10x Jxx is laughable when one is speaking in terms of slam interest.

The first hand has 7 controls, and either 1st or 2nd round control of all suits. It also, not coincidentally since you were clearly 'cooking' the hand to make a point, holds the rather important heart J.

For example, AQx Axx KJ10x AJx is an even better hand yet slam is not very good.

The point that I and Zelandakh (I think) were making is that East should take a look at the notional trump suit as well as his overall control situation and decide that Q10xxx is not a slam-suitable suit, and that the possession of but one side A, albeit a good one to have, is not enough to make his hand slam interested.

Now, I confess that it hadn't occurred to me (due to the poster not specifying) that opener was limited to about 11-14. If that is true, then I would change my view, and accept that opener should show a tiny bit of interest. I do have serious difficulty understanding how it is possible to have a coherent method that is based on the notion that 3♦ can be passed. What, one wonders, does opener have to do to show diamonds and keep 3N in sight? A slow 3♦? (just kidding).

If opener does choose to show a hand with no slam interest, that doesn't bar responder. A responder holding Axx AJx KJ10x Axx may well choose to make another move: the fact that he is looking at all those juicy controls and a second heart honour should be enough to persuade him that the 5-level is safe even opposite a poor hand...whether that would be so depends upon style....as in how aggressively does partner open and how many diamonds can he have? Btw, doesn't acol use a weak notrump? If so, then the odds that opener is 4=4 reds are low: he'd have to be 1=4=4=4 or 4=4=4=1, would he not?

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2014-January-28, 11:08, said:

Now, I confess that it hadn't occurred to me (due to the poster not specifying) that opener was limited to about 11-14. If that is true, then I would change my view, and accept that opener should show a tiny bit of interest. I do have serious difficulty understanding how it is possible to have a coherent method that is based on the notion that 3♦ can be passed. What, one wonders, does opener have to do to show diamonds and keep 3N in sight? A slow 3♦? (just kidding).

I don't know how most people fix this issue, but bear in mind that for most people an Acol 2/1 playing weak NT is a hand that wants to play in game opposite a balanced 15, so 2N is GF. We fix the problem by saying 2N doesn't have to be balanced, so you bid 2N on the way with a bigger hand.

Quote

The point that I and Zelandakh (I think) were making is that East should take a look at the notional trump suit as well as his overall control situation and decide that Q10xxx is not a slam-suitable suit, and that the possession of but one side A, albeit a good one to have, is not enough to make his hand slam interested.

<snip>

The notion that Axx AJx KJ10x Axx is remotely the same hand as AKQ Axx KJ10x Jxx is laughable when one is speaking in terms of slam interest.

You're talking about the heart slam, I was looking at a diamond slam. On the actual hand 5♥ is work, 5♦ simply demands a non heart lead if the diamonds break.

OK, I should have cooked it to ♥KJx