[Zelandakh]

Acol comes in many varieties Mike, so it is quite difficult to give good answers. In traditional Acol, where a 2NT rebid is not forcing, the 2/1 can be very weak and the range for 3♦ goes much higher than 14. In the most common modern variety, the 2/1 shows a GF hand opposite a strong NT - now the 3♦ rebid tops out at a bad 15. Another option is to make the 2/1 stronger still and then have it force the bidding to 2NT. In that case the 3♦ rebid can show extras as it does in most other systems. Playing one of the others, to show extras and keep diamonds in the picture you either raise to 4♦ directly or invent a forcing bid and hope to be able to say 3♦ next time around. There are good reasons why Acol is dying at higher levels of competition...

As for 1♥ followed by bidding diamonds, once again there are different varieties here. For me this always promises 5 hearts. In most version of Acol though this could also be 4441. I tend to forget that as it is such a long time since I have played it. In Stone Age Acol this could also be 1444 but almost everyone opens that shape 1♦ now so I would think we can assume that possibility is not on the table. Perhaps we should check with eagles what he opens with a weak 4441 though.

[mycroft]

if 3♥ is NF, then there's really no way to show 3-card support for partner's could-possibly-be-5+card-suit. I will admit I don't understand Acol NFities, but this one has to be forcing, one would think, or there's no slam try in the major.

It's a pity it isn't even QJxxx with opener; still not great, but at least approaching makeable.

[mikeh]

Cyberyeti, on 2014-January-28, 11:13, said:

You're talking about the heart slam, I was looking at a diamond slam. On the actual hand 5♥ is work, 5♦ simply demands a non heart lead if the diamonds break.

No I wasn't. I was speaking in terms of any slam interest: clearly the texture of the heart suit is key to either red suit slam, since responder showed heart length and has nowhere to pitch heart losers regardless of denomination. I admit I wasn't specific and indeed referred to hearts as the notional trump suit, but obviously one is going to play in the 4-4/5-4 rather than the 5-3, and one might even have to play the 4-4 rather than the 5-4. The point I was making was that opener, knowing that hearts are key to slam, should downgrade Q10xxx, when holding only one side Ace.

[MrAce]

eagles123, on 2014-January-27, 13:19, said:

---

this is our bidding: 1 down.

my questions are

1) is the bidding ok?

I would start

1♥--2♦
3♠--(splinter and min+ with 4+ diamonds)

Not sure if this would keep us out of slam, but i thought this would be the standard rebid of opener over 2♦

[Wackojack]

MrAce, on 2014-January-28, 13:31, said:

I would start

1♥--2♦
3♠--(splinter and min+ with 4+ diamonds)

Not sure if this would keep us out of slam, but i thought this would be the standard rebid of opener over 2♦

I was discussing this hand with a friend who plays a strong club system and the system bids would be.
1♥ - 2♦
3♠

This bid would show 1543 distribution and 13-16 HCP or but less likely 1642 and maybe a good 12-15. (NOT 1552).
Now responder's hand is massively devalued but slam is still not quite out of the question. As you can see this would be the same in Standard. Now:
3N = natural
4♦ = minorwood
4♥ = to play
4♠= Ace
4NT = ♥key card

So we have limited choice to investigate. Partner could hace a perfecto: x, KQxxx, AQxx, Kxx when we want to be in 6♥ or even x, KQJxx, AQxx, Axx with 13 off the top. So 4NT key card is reasonable and you are lucky if you are playing 0314 in this case. With the posted hand partner would respond 5♦and you would have to sign of in 5♥ which has about a 50% chance of making. You would also have pass 5♥if partner showed 2. However, if you get a 5♣ response showing 3, then you queen ask with 5♦ and at least now confidently bid 6♥. Altogether though this is not very satisfactory.

[mikeh]

Wackojack, on 2014-January-30, 08:13, said:

I was discussing this hand with a friend who plays a strong club system and the system bids would be.
1♥ - 2♦
3♠

This bid would show 1543 distribution and 13-16 HCP or but less likely 1642 and maybe a good 12-15. (NOT 1552).
Now responder's hand is massively devalued but slam is still not quite out of the question. As you can see this would be the same in Standard. Now:
3N = natural
4♦ = minorwood
4♥ = to play
4♠= Ace
4NT = ♥key card

So we have limited choice to investigate. Partner could hace a perfecto: x, KQxxx, AQxx, Kxx when we want to be in 6♥ or even x, KQJxx, AQxx, Axx with 13 off the top. So 4NT key card is reasonable and you are lucky if you are playing 0314 in this case. With the posted hand partner would respond 5♦and you would have to sign of in 5♥ which has about a 50% chance of making. You would also have pass 5♥if partner showed 2. However, if you get a 5♣ response showing 3, then you queen ask with 5♦ and at least now confidently bid 6♥. Altogether though this is not very satisfactory.

another player who has no clue about keycard. Why do players insist on misusing such a simple tool?

[Wackojack]

mikeh, on 2014-January-30, 08:48, said:

another player who has no clue about keycard. Why do players insist on misusing such a simple tool?

Read my post carefully. I did say that this was not satisfactory commenting on this method that Ace gave. The point I was hoping that readers would get was that the rebid of 3♠ with 13 points (which was the system bid that my friend played) leads you to the unsatisfactory situation where you have no room for anything but a try with 4NT. I repeat this is clearly unsatisfactory. Of course if we stick with 1♥-2♦-3♦-3♥ we have more room to avoid the slam.

[Zelandakh]

Wackojack, on 2014-January-30, 10:03, said:

The point I was hoping that readers would get was that the rebid of 3♠ with 13 points (which was the system bid that my friend played) leads you to the unsatisfactory situation where you have no room for anything but a try with 4NT. I repeat this is clearly unsatisfactory.

It is not only unsatisfactory, it is also wrong. 4♥ over 3NT is clearly a slam try - why else did we bid 3♠ first? And even if you do not accept that then there is Helen's 5♥ continuation. You can build RKCB into your slam tries but you should not build a slam try into your RKCB. It also makes little sense for both 3♦ - 4♦ and 3♦ - 3♠ - 3NT - 4♦ to be RKCB. One of these, probably the latter so that 3♠ can be converted to a cue bid, has to be a slam try. That gives you 4 level slam tries in both suits which is about as good as you can hope for with these agreements.

[mikeh]

Wackojack, on 2014-January-30, 10:03, said:

Read my post carefully. I did say that this was not satisfactory commenting on this method that Ace gave. The point I was hoping that readers would get was that the rebid of 3♠ with 13 points (which was the system bid that my friend played) leads you to the unsatisfactory situation where you have no room for anything but a try with 4NT. I repeat this is clearly unsatisfactory. Of course if we stick with 1♥-2♦-3♦-3♥ we have more room to avoid the slam.

I did read your post, and I read this one as well, and you are still abusing a simple convention, due to apparently having no clue about keycard.

One does NOT use keycard as a 'try' for slam. One uses keycard only once one has decided that the combined assets should be enough for 12 or 13 tricks and one wants to be sure that the controls are sufficient as well. It is NOT a slam try. It is a way to avoid what appeared to be a good slam after unexpectedly discovering that we are off too many keys, or a way to get to grand when we know small is good but we need specific cards or holdings to count to 13.

I doubt that any good player would disagree with that last paragraph.

On the posited auction, in which opener has splintered, we don't keycard with Jxx in a side suit when we can readily construct hands on which we are off the AK in that suit.

This is enough to demonstrate that keycard is silly. If you need to look further, because you are stubborn and enjoy guessing at high levels after keycard, ask yourself how you are going to count tricks opposite ANY answer to keycard. Let me give you a small hint.....how do you find the diamond Q?

Is there an alternative? As it happens, a 3♠ splinter leaves you awkwardly placed, but that is no reason for closing your eyes and using keycard. Just because no choice is great is no reason to make the worst choice, and keycard is moronic when the answers don't help.

You could try 4♦, unless that was (puke) minorwood, which you also seem to like for reasons that escape me. You could try 4♥ but that is likely to be passed, or at least to sow confusion.

No, if you want to make a 'slam try', you have only one real choice: 4♠. It isn't a thing of beauty but it show slam interest opposite a splinter, and implies an inability to use keycard while denying a club control.

You must surely have a heart control to go slamming with no club control. Were partner to hold a good hand, he can either keycard or cuebid....this probably comes as news to someone who loves keycard so much that he has two ways to use it in this auction, but it is in fact possible to bid slams accurately without ever asking for Aces. I never really keep track of these things but in my best partnerships I think we bid at least 30% of our suit slams without keycard.

[MrAce]

Wackojack, on 2014-January-30, 10:03, said:

Read my post carefully. I did say that this was not satisfactory commenting on this method that Ace gave. The point I was hoping that readers would get was that the rebid of 3♠ with 13 points (which was the system bid that my friend played) leads you to the unsatisfactory situation where you have no room for anything but a try with 4NT. I repeat this is clearly unsatisfactory. Of course if we stick with 1♥-2♦-3♦-3♥ we have more room to avoid the slam.

Are you sure he is the one who did not understand what was meant ?

You also wrote some 4 level bids and claimed to be standard, which are anything but standard imo.

[Wackojack]

Allow me to explain myself.

I found Aces post in choosing the 3♠splinter as interesting. Moreover, I learned that my friend would have made the same bid in his strong club system. I would not have thought to use this bid myself and would have automatically bid 3♥. Thus in the spirit of learning and not preaching I was looking at the implications of using the said 3♠ bid. When I referred to Standard I meant that the 3♠ splinter had the same meaning in both the strong club and Standard American systems.

Then I listed the bids available over 3S and my friends assigned meanings. If anyone wants to give them other meanings I please be my guest. All I can say on this is that the meanings of the bids do not seem totally unreasonable except that as Mikeh says most experts don't use minorwood 4♦ as minorwood so this could be a cue here. I do not use minorwood with my regular partners or kick back. Nevertheless, I know that my friend has some rather complex rules about when 4♦ is or is not minorwood.

Incidentally these bids are not a sequence as Zel must have thought. They are a list.

If you junk 4♦ minorwood and keep it as a cue. Then:
1♥ -2♦
3♠ - 4♦
4♥- ?

OK responder has denied a club control so the question is "Over 4♦ could opener have the ace of clubs for his 4♥ bid? The answer must be yes it is possible particularly in an Acol context. Then slam becomes a real possibility. This is therefore not entirely satisfactory either.

Finally I will attempt to answer Mikeh's question "Why do players insist on misusing such a simple tool?

They do simply because they do not have any other bidding tool to investigate slam and they have doubts about what is forcing and what isn't. So when slam is a possibility they will roll out the old black. Sometimes they strike lucky sometimes not. BUT if they never try, then they never get lucky. Mikeh of course knows this and gives invaluable advice on how to build the base of the pyramid first. Sometimes though he does rant a bit

[mikeh]

Wackojack, on 2014-January-30, 12:40, said:

Allow me to explain myself.




Finally I will attempt to answer Mikeh's question "Why do players insist on misusing such a simple tool?

They do simply because they do not have any other bidding tool to investigate slam and they have doubts about what is forcing and what isn't. So when slam is a possibility they will roll out the old black. Sometimes they strike lucky sometimes not. BUT if they never try, then they never get lucky. Mikeh of course knows this and gives invaluable advice on how to build the base of the pyramid first. Sometimes though he does rant a bit

Guilty as charged.

I would, however, look at it another way. For as long as bad players use keycard as a slam try, instead of trying to bid cooperatively, they will never get any better. If a player wants to get better, he or she must recognize the need to actually change some things about their game. Sure, they will no doubt struggle with cooperative bidding but the payoff, when they improve, is enormous.

The answer to learning that one is making a basic mistake is not to acknowledge that it is a basic mistake and then insist on still doing it. It is to try to learn alternatives such that one stops making the basic mistake.