[Jinksy]

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You’re playing 5cM with better minor. Teams, unfavourable (hands rotated for convenience).

W is a strong club player, E is fairly weak.

How do you understand the double? And what do you propose to do about it?

[Zelandakh]

Partner wants me to bid something and there is a good chance they do not have 4 hearts. I do not really need to think much more about it at this stage as I think bidding 3♣ is pretty clear.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Zelandakh, on 2014-January-28, 08:24, said:

Partner wants me to bid something and there is a good chance they do not have 4 hearts. I do not really need to think much more about it at this stage as I think bidding 3♣ is pretty clear.

Why didn't North make a Neg-DBL at his first turn ?

[PhilKing]

I've heard of this one - though you don't see them often these days. It's called a penalty double. It rather suggests the overcall was on a four-bagger, so this could be pretty brutal.

Obviously I pass.

[Zelandakh]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2014-January-28, 08:44, said:

Why didn't North make a Neg-DBL at his first turn ?

Zelandakh, on 2014-January-28, 08:24, said:

there is a good chance they do not have 4 hearts

If they were to have 4 hearts then they felt too weak to double last time around and now want to step in at the 3 level at unfavourable. In that case the opponents are not going to let us have it at 3♣ anyway.

I know what you mean though - if partner were old school they would play this double as penalty. But if we were playing penalty doubles here then I would have felt under pressure not to pass last time around, since we suddenly have no way of competing on many simple part-score battles.

Edit: you still play penalty doubles in this sequence Phil? I must be seriously out of touch.

[PhilKing]

Zelandakh, on 2014-January-28, 09:09, said:

Edit: you still play penalty doubles in this sequence Phil? I must be seriously out of touch.

If I have, say, a 3244 with 7-9 HCP, I am happy to risk 2NT now. But for me, the logic of this auction dictates penalties, however "modern" one is.

[JaffaCakes]

Looking at the auction in isolation this is surely a penalty double. However what puzzles me is my !SA. How can LHO have a sensible four card overcall and partner have a penalty pass of 1!S? Surely partner would have bid 1NT with 4 or 5 mediocre spades? I guess LHO may have psyched?

[billw55]

Maybe east (stated as weak) raised with a doubleton. Trumps could be something like A Q9xxx KTxxx Jx around the table?

[helene_t]

Yes this is a penalty double. Apparently RHO has raised on a doubleton (LHO having overcalled on a 4-card suit is not plausible since good players do that only with good 4-card suits). Maybe RHO or LHO missorted his hand.

[the_clown]

Double is for penalties and I am delighted to pass.

[ggwhiz]

the_clown, on 2014-January-28, 11:15, said:

Double is for penalties and I am delighted to pass.

4 trumps and a stiff club are pretty good reasons to pass 1♠ and they are not making this.

[MrAce]

helene_t, on 2014-January-28, 10:20, said:

Yes this is a penalty double. Apparently RHO has raised on a doubleton (LHO having overcalled on a 4-card suit is not plausible since good players do that only with good 4-card suits). Maybe RHO or LHO missorted his hand.

How nice, LHO overcalled with 4 and RHO raised with 2 (or some other weird action similar to this) and our double is penalty because we are prepared and spared a low level double for this ! I don't know if it will be our opponents or US who will win the comedy contest.

I am with Zel on the theory side of discussion, but things do not add up much for a negative double here when i look at my hand.

[the_clown]

MrAce, on 2014-January-28, 13:42, said:

How nice, LHO overcalled with 4 and RHO raised with 2 (or some other weird action similar to this) and our double is penalty because we are prepared and spared a low level double for this ! I don't know if it will be our opponents or US who will win the comedy contest.

I am with Zel on the theory side of discussion, but things do not add up much for a negative double here when i look at my hand.

Well when partner has made a penalty pass and they raise it will be great if he can double for penalties. If We had a spade void instead of the Ace I bet everyone would pass in a flash. So if we were to agree that double here is takeout for the minors, this means that we give up the ability to punish them when they raise.

[mr1303]

I remember having a bid argument with a partner about a similar sequence when I held Kx of their suit.

Partner had intended it as a light take-out double. My argument was that I had decided to trust partner rather than opponents.

[lycier]

Usually penalty double is my choice.

[MrAce]

the_clown, on 2014-January-28, 18:02, said:

Well when partner has made a penalty pass and they raise it will be great if he can double for penalties. If We had a spade void instead of the Ace I bet everyone would pass in a flash. So if we were to agree that double here is takeout for the minors, this means that we give up the ability to punish them when they raise.

You won't miss much by not using penalty doubles at 2 level when they bid and raise.

[gszes]

throw me in the penalty x camp. P had an impossible 2 nt bid if they wanted to treat their hand

as take out (xxxx Kx Qxxxx xx for ex). p knows from the bidding you are short in spades and

have at least 4 clubs and the 2n bid is the only way to get diamonds (and a probable fit) into

the picture while still leaving 3c as a possible contract. This hand also shows why p could not neg

x first time around:))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))




Even though my hand is hardly top notch I pass:)))))))))))))

[mycroft]

I play this as "do something intelligent", not pure penalty.

The only person in my room that overcalls on a 4-bagger (and it'll be KQT9 or better, since they don't have the ace) is me. I know of people who raise on two, but they've trained their partners to be the most honest person on the block. Partner could have Jxxxx and stuff, I guess, but why he would look for penalty at the 1 level on that I can't really set up.

We also play "the only pair that plays two-of-a-fit undoubled is us"; I'm expecting that partner would be happy to see me pass, but as this isn't a traditional OBAR BIDS situation, she could be stuck for a call that says "DSI,P, but don't pass".

[WellSpyder]

mycroft, on 2014-January-29, 11:09, said:

We also play "the only pair that plays two-of-a-fit undoubled is us"

Does this apply at teams (as OP states this was) as well as pairs? And even if opponents are reasonably honest they could presumably have a 7-card fit, even if they are unlikely to be violating Burns' Law of Total Trumps.

[Jinksy]

Helene_t has the hands dead on:

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MrAce said:

How nice, LHO overcalled with 4 and RHO raised with 2 (or some other weird action similar to this) and our double is penalty because we are prepared and spared a low level double for this ! I don't know if it will be our opponents or US who will win the comedy contest.

This makes no sense to me. As it happened E had flipped, but on the diagram above, are you telling me you wouldn't bid 1S on W's hand? Then give E two of my Ss for the KS and a small D for eg, and N's (my) pass looks conservative but sane (if you disagree with can adjust a bit further to subtract a soft side-suit point or two from me), her 2S looks automatic, and my subsequent X still looks marked.

Quite aside from that, as someone pointed out, nothing that's happened other than you happening to have an extra trump honour is inconsistent with trumps being 5530 around the table, (or 5431 with P having the SA instead of you), so what's so abnormal about having a penalty double to prepare for that?