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I'm curious when (if ever) people consider a negative double to be game forcing. It seems that certain auctions become easier if opener's 3M or 4m rebids are forcing, but I've never seen a detailed discussion of this anywhere.
When is Negative Double Game Forcing?
#1
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Posted 2013-December-24, 11:26
Adam W. Meyerson
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#2
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Posted 2013-December-24, 12:06
Since we can't select more than one, I assume your question is "Where is the line drawn?"
The negative double obviously needs the strength to handle the level of Opener's rebid, so I don't think Opener's 3-bids need to be forcing. After 1M (3H), for instance, Opener with spades can bid 3 or 4 spades confident that Responder can handle either --pass, raise, or correct. With a monster, we still have the 4H Cue at Opener's disposal.
The negative double obviously needs the strength to handle the level of Opener's rebid, so I don't think Opener's 3-bids need to be forcing. After 1M (3H), for instance, Opener with spades can bid 3 or 4 spades confident that Responder can handle either --pass, raise, or correct. With a monster, we still have the 4H Cue at Opener's disposal.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
#3
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Posted 2013-December-24, 12:15
aguahombre, on 2013-December-24, 12:06, said:
Since we can't select more than one, I assume your question is "Where is the line drawn?"
The negative double obviously needs the strength to handle the level of Opener's rebid, so I don't think Opener's 3-bids need to be forcing. After 1M (3H), for instance, Opener with spades can bid 3 or 4 spades confident that Responder can handle either --pass, raise, or correct. With a monster, we still have the 4H Cue at Opener's disposal.
The negative double obviously needs the strength to handle the level of Opener's rebid, so I don't think Opener's 3-bids need to be forcing. After 1M (3H), for instance, Opener with spades can bid 3 or 4 spades confident that Responder can handle either --pass, raise, or correct. With a monster, we still have the 4H Cue at Opener's disposal.
You can select more than one.
Adam W. Meyerson
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a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
#4
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Posted 2013-December-24, 12:54
To give a little more perspective, suppose the auction starts:
1m - (3H) - Dbl - (Pass)
There are a lot of weak notrump type hands where opener is sort of stuck rebidding 3NT. If opener actually has four spades that is basically the best possible news. Usually a 4-4 major fit is worth an upgrade, especially since most of the minimum doubles are hands with singleton heart where you feel compelled to act in order to protect. So it seems weird that opener's 3♠ rebid (great news! we have a fit!) is not forcing to game, whereas when opener doesn't have a fit you are basically compelled to play 3NT.
1m - (3H) - Dbl - (Pass)
There are a lot of weak notrump type hands where opener is sort of stuck rebidding 3NT. If opener actually has four spades that is basically the best possible news. Usually a 4-4 major fit is worth an upgrade, especially since most of the minimum doubles are hands with singleton heart where you feel compelled to act in order to protect. So it seems weird that opener's 3♠ rebid (great news! we have a fit!) is not forcing to game, whereas when opener doesn't have a fit you are basically compelled to play 3NT.
Adam W. Meyerson
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Posted 2013-December-25, 13:15
You must discuss this with your partner !
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#6
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Posted 2013-December-25, 15:51
awm, on 2013-December-24, 12:54, said:
To give a little more perspective, suppose the auction starts:
1m - (3H) - Dbl - (Pass)
There are a lot of weak notrump type hands where opener is sort of stuck rebidding 3NT. If opener actually has four spades that is basically the best possible news. Usually a 4-4 major fit is worth an upgrade, especially since most of the minimum doubles are hands with singleton heart where you feel compelled to act in order to protect. So it seems weird that opener's 3♠ rebid (great news! we have a fit!) is not forcing to game, whereas when opener doesn't have a fit you are basically compelled to play 3NT.
1m - (3H) - Dbl - (Pass)
There are a lot of weak notrump type hands where opener is sort of stuck rebidding 3NT. If opener actually has four spades that is basically the best possible news. Usually a 4-4 major fit is worth an upgrade, especially since most of the minimum doubles are hands with singleton heart where you feel compelled to act in order to protect. So it seems weird that opener's 3♠ rebid (great news! we have a fit!) is not forcing to game, whereas when opener doesn't have a fit you are basically compelled to play 3NT.
It's not necessarily great news. What would Opener rebid on a 3=2=5=3 shape with xx in hearts, say AJx xx QJxxx AJx? Pass? 4♦? 3NT? I think many people would bid 3♠.
Also, whilst Responder would like to have 4 spades to double, but he's not always dealt the ideal hand.
Finally, it's worth remembering that if Responder does have an ideal shape for a double, he may have stretched to enter the auction in the first place. Does this mean that when he has to choose between 4♠ and defending 3♥?
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Posted 2013-December-26, 13:12
Lurpoa, on 2013-December-25, 13:15, said:
You must discuss this with your partner !
As with everything...
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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Posted 2013-December-26, 13:40
Vampyr, on 2013-December-26, 13:12, said:
As with everything...
Indeed ! You are right !
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Posted 2013-December-28, 21:10
Perhaps the way the question is posed biases the decision...
Partner and I play 1a-3B-x to facilitate a 3N bid but not require it. Partner can always pass for penalties.
We've decided that after 1a-3♥ any action by responder forces to 3N or higher (4 card ♠s are implied but not guaranteed).
1a-3♠-x does not guarantee ♥ but does guarantee the strength to play at level.
The issue I find with the question is a negative double implies tolerance and no fit - so a GF is not technically established.
Partner and I play 1a-3B-x to facilitate a 3N bid but not require it. Partner can always pass for penalties.
We've decided that after 1a-3♥ any action by responder forces to 3N or higher (4 card ♠s are implied but not guaranteed).
1a-3♠-x does not guarantee ♥ but does guarantee the strength to play at level.
The issue I find with the question is a negative double implies tolerance and no fit - so a GF is not technically established.
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Posted 2013-December-29, 04:05
Lurpoa, on 2013-December-26, 13:40, said:
Indeed ! You are right !
Well, quite, so this is why it doesn't need saying. All discussions of methods work on the assumption that you will have agreed the method with your partner.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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Posted 2014-February-20, 11:21
Vampyr, on 2013-December-29, 04:05, said:
Well, quite, so this is why it doesn't need saying. All discussions of methods work on the assumption that you will have agreed the method with your partner.
No doubt !
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#12
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Posted 2014-February-20, 12:55
Obviously 1m- (3♠)-DBL and above doubles forces us to play game (except 1d-4cl-dbl gives us the ability to sit on 4♦ whether we should or not is another story) But does that mean 3♠-DBL and above creates a GF, hence FP is up to you. Shall we double only with 12+ hcp hands over 3♠ or higher preempts ? If your answer is YES then i think it is GF and creates a FP.
If you, however, can double 3♠ with much less hcp and perfect shapes and/or with hearts+diamond hands where you think you have a safe heaven in diamonds even if you were not actually expecting to make your game necessarily vs a dead minimum by pd, but close, then even though you kinda forced your pd to game, will it create a FP or not is debatable.
If you, however, can double 3♠ with much less hcp and perfect shapes and/or with hearts+diamond hands where you think you have a safe heaven in diamonds even if you were not actually expecting to make your game necessarily vs a dead minimum by pd, but close, then even though you kinda forced your pd to game, will it create a FP or not is debatable.
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Posted 2014-February-22, 16:26
awm, on 2013-December-24, 12:54, said:
To give a little more perspective, suppose the auction starts:
1m - (3H) - Dbl - (Pass)
There are a lot of weak notrump type hands where opener is sort of stuck rebidding 3NT. If opener actually has four spades that is basically the best possible news. Usually a 4-4 major fit is worth an upgrade, especially since most of the minimum doubles are hands with singleton heart where you feel compelled to act in order to protect. So it seems weird that opener's 3♠ rebid (great news! we have a fit!) is not forcing to game, whereas when opener doesn't have a fit you are basically compelled to play 3NT.
1m - (3H) - Dbl - (Pass)
There are a lot of weak notrump type hands where opener is sort of stuck rebidding 3NT. If opener actually has four spades that is basically the best possible news. Usually a 4-4 major fit is worth an upgrade, especially since most of the minimum doubles are hands with singleton heart where you feel compelled to act in order to protect. So it seems weird that opener's 3♠ rebid (great news! we have a fit!) is not forcing to game, whereas when opener doesn't have a fit you are basically compelled to play 3NT.
Kryztof Martens are proposing that the double in this sequence is negative with four ♠, or a game going hand without a stopper in ♥.
After the double 3♠ is forcing from opener, and responder can then bid 3nt to show no 4 card ♠ and no stopper in ♥.
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Posted 2014-February-22, 17:01
DrMunk, on 2014-February-22, 16:26, said:
Kryztof Martens are proposing that the double in this sequence is negative with four ♠, or a game going hand without a stopper in ♥.
After the double 3♠ is forcing from opener, and responder can then bid 3nt to show no 4 card ♠ and no stopper in ♥.
After the double 3♠ is forcing from opener, and responder can then bid 3nt to show no 4 card ♠ and no stopper in ♥.
This is interesting. But how do the partnership find a spade fit?
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Posted 2014-February-22, 17:08
Vampyr, on 2014-February-22, 17:01, said:
This is interesting. But how do the partnership find a spade fit?
By bidding, er, 3♠.
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Posted 2014-February-22, 17:39
DrMunk, on 2014-February-22, 16:26, said:
Kryztof Martens are proposing that the double in this sequence is negative with four ♠, or a game going hand without a stopper in ♥.
After the double 3♠ is forcing from opener, and responder can then bid 3nt to show no 4 card ♠ and no stopper in ♥.
After the double 3♠ is forcing from opener, and responder can then bid 3nt to show no 4 card ♠ and no stopper in ♥.
So what he is saying is, DBL of 3♥ is GF regardless ? Because he says it is GF w/o ♥ stopper or negative double with 4 card spades but must be GF also because he suggests 3♠ by opener is GF. Since he does not tell how to stop in 3♠, DBL of 3♥ must be GF regardless.
Or did i miss something ?
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"
"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"
"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."
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Posted 2014-February-22, 18:54
MrAce, on 2014-February-22, 17:39, said:
So what he is saying is, DBL of 3♥ is GF regardless ? Because he says it is GF w/o ♥ stopper or negative double with 4 card spades but must be GF also because he suggests 3♠ by opener is GF. Since he does not tell how to stop in 3♠, DBL of 3♥ must be GF regardless.
Or did i miss something ?
Or did i miss something ?
I don't think you missed anything. 3S by opener apparently can't be passed, and 3NT after that by Responder is not likely to be passed either, since NT would be wrong-sided. Sounds like if opener has XXXX KJX AQJ JXX, he might bid 3NT instead of 3S out of fright.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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Posted 2014-February-23, 00:04
I just don't get it, After 1♠-(3♥)-X
cant partner have the values to compete to 4 of minor but is unable to force to game and doesn't have a ♥ stopper
if opener has extras and fit you'll find 5 of minor
same with 1♥-(3♠)-X?
cant partner have the values to compete to 4 of minor but is unable to force to game and doesn't have a ♥ stopper
if opener has extras and fit you'll find 5 of minor
same with 1♥-(3♠)-X?
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Posted 2014-February-23, 17:44
I would think it is much much more important to get to the best game at the expense of not being able to stop on a dime in 4m.
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Posted 2014-February-24, 05:18
DrMunk, on 2014-February-22, 16:26, said:
Kryztof Martens are proposing that the double in this sequence is negative with four ♠, or a game going hand without a stopper in ♥.
This seems like a natural progression from Thrump Doubles to me. Another reasonable approach with a similar effect would be for double to show 4+ spades and 3♠ to be a stopper ask + some strong hand types.
(-: Zel :-)