[eagles123]

---

We missed 4H on this one, yes it's tricky on a spade lead but still makeable. Even 3 clubs X would have scored better for us. Is there any blame here or just bad luck?


Thanks,

Eagles

[RSClyde]

I'd have passed the double of 3C with the east hand: you've already bid your suit twice and your king of clubs appears to be a defensive value.

[ArtK78]

After partner's redouble, I would probably just bid 4♥. At a minimum, I would bid 3♥ rather than 2♥ on the second round.

East's bidding represented a weak hand with long hearts unsuitable for defense and not interested in bidding a game. West has a good hand, but with East representing a bad hand it is not clear that there is a game on the cards. I voted 100% of the blame to East, and that may be a bit harsh, but East clearly misrepresented the nature of his hand so I gave him the blame.

By the way, there is no guarantee that you are beating 3♣x.

[mcphee]

This hand depends on how you have elected to bid after the re-double. When the opening hand re-bid 2H and does not offer partner the chance to double for penalty they are showing an offensive hand. I think it was pretty clear for the re-double hand to raise H frankly, 2 trumps along with 2 aces is just far too much to say pass. I am not anxious to bid 3H facing short H as I feel this is too encouraging.

[TylerE]

100% East.

West described his hand accurately, East wasn't paying attention. Even if W is void in ♥ this could easily be a one-loser trump suit.

[mikeh]

West has no business doubling 3♣. He has terrible shape and no right to expect partner to hold a club trick...his double was pure penalty in standard methods, and he is looking at 2 tricks and a partner who has shown a minimum hand with long hearts. The auction strongly suggests that S has a stiff heart, so where are the tricks if partner holds say 3=6=3=1 with Qxx AKQxxx xxx x, which is consistent with the bidding?

He has a perfectly good natural 3♥ call.

Now, would or should that get East to bid game? I doubt it: that club K looks like wasted values on offence.

This seems to me to be another hand where really there is no blame. There was what I think was a bad call: the double. There was also what I think was another questionable call: 3♥. However, I think that better bidding would have reached the same spot.

As for the play being 'tricky' on a spade lead, that's not the word I would use. Lucky is more like it: how are you playing trump? A first round hook to guard against a 4-0 break, losing to the stiff Q offside, or one top honour, then to dummy in clubs and hook, or play for the drop? I'd go for the middle, since clubs are marked as 4=4, and spades probably 4=3, and if N held 4=4 minors, he might well bid 2♦ or (if pass wasn't penalty) pass. So I'd read N as 3=3=3=4.

Btw, on some layouts the opps might be playing 3 rounds of diamonds, ruffing in, and then leading a spade, and now the play is even more problematic unless the heart Q drops on the first round of trump. However, the auction almost rules that out.

A hint: everyone, world champion on down to beginner, gets bad results, such as missing a good contract. It is a basic mistake to assume that every time this happens, somebody did something wrong. Show me a system and style that never gets it 'wrong', and I will quit the game, since half of the challenge will have gone out of the game (assuming I was capable of remembering that method).

[RSClyde]

 ArtK78, on 2013-November-06, 07:31, said:

After partner's redouble, I would probably just bid 4♥. At a minimum, I would bid 3♥ rather than 2♥ on the second round.

East's bidding represented a weak hand with long hearts unsuitable for defense and not interested in bidding a game. West has a good hand, but with East representing a bad hand it is not clear that there is a game on the cards. I voted 100% of the blame to East, and that may be a bit harsh, but East clearly misrepresented the nature of his hand so I gave him the blame.

By the way, there is no guarantee that you are beating 3♣x.

You described that with the 2♥ bid. With a strong defensive value in clubs (which may mean nothing on offense) pulling 3♣X is way too one pushy. Why do you think we're not beating 3♣?

[ArtK78]

 RSClyde, on 2013-November-06, 15:15, said:

You described that with the 2♥ bid. With a strong defensive value in clubs (which may mean nothing on offense) pulling 3♣X is way too one pushy. Why do you think we're not beating 3♣?

What you describe with a 2♥ call is a minimum hand with 6 hearts and no interest in defending a low level partscore. You have not described a hand with AKJxxxx of hearts which should have reasonable play for 4♥ opposite almost any hand good enough to redouble. That is the argument in favor of bidding 4♥. One might be a little less confident and bid 3♥, showing a purely offensive hand which does not want to defend a low level partscore but is highly invitational to game in hearts.

As for beating 3♣x, I said that there is no guarantee that you will beat 3♣x, not that you would not beat 3♣x. Sometimes, the opponents have some distributional surprises for you, and you wind up -670.

[RSClyde]

 ArtK78, on 2013-November-06, 15:52, said:

What you describe with a 2♥ call is a minimum hand with 6 hearts and no interest in defending a low level partscore. You have not described a hand with AKJxxxx of hearts which should have reasonable play for 4♥ opposite almost any hand good enough to redouble. That is the argument in favor of bidding 4♥. One might be a little less confident and bid 3♥, showing a purely offensive hand which does not want to defend a low level partscore but is highly invitational to game in hearts.

As for beating 3♣x, I said that there is no guarantee that you will beat 3♣x, not that you would not beat 3♣x. Sometimes, the opponents have some distributional surprises for you, and you wind up -670.

When they only have 8 trump, there's only so much they can do to surprise you. Who cares about 4♥? If we can make that we can beat 3♣ a couple of tricks when defending is partner's preference. I get it you have one extra heart, but does that really equal overriding partner at this point? I mean look at this hand: partner has as many hearts as he could possibly have (he could have been void): where do you want to be? Declaring 4♥ or defending 3♣X?

[ArtK78]

I guess you are right. But I can only see one hand when I am bidding.

[nigel_k]

Probably East should have bid 3♥ instead of 2♥ but there is no way he can just leap to game opposite a redouble. West has more than enough to bid game at the end and deserves most of the blame.

[the hog]

 eagles123, on 2013-November-06, 06:42, said:

---

We missed 4H on this one, yes it's tricky on a spade lead but still makeable. Even 3 clubs X would have scored better for us. Is there any blame here or just bad luck?


Thanks,

Eagles

Actually I would have got there by opening 4H. Pulling the x of 3C is poor. This is penalties and you have the CK. What more do you want? I would have played 3Cx after a 1H opening.
By the way, I would not have xx either, nor would I have x 3C. You do not have a penalty x of 3C, but that is another story.

[RSClyde]

I believe there is too much general reluctance to defend: too much criticism of west's double of 3♣, too much sympathy for east's pull.

West has to believe that each side has like an 8 card fit, but maybe someone has 9: probably partner won't sit a double on this kind of auction with 7 hearts and a club void so it's reasonable to bid as though there are at most a total of 17 trump. Now let's consult the law with 17 presumed trump (though there are possibly only 16):
If 3♣ is making then hearts is playing for 8 tricks. Now do I really believe that we can't make 3♥? Seems pretty unlikely.
If 3♣ is down 1 then hearts makes 3, where do you want to be?
If 4♥ makes then 3♣ is down 2, where do you want to be?
Plus when you play hearts, you aren't sure whether or no it's right to be in 4, but defending 3CX spares you having to know.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

the bidding was up and including the double of 3C reasonable, so was passing 3H.

The double of 3C is penalty, opener has the King of clubs and should pass it out,
bidding 3H say, I dont have an opening bid.
But than he should have opened the bidding differently, say with a 4H preempt.

Not reaching game in an uncontested auction, would not have been the end of the
world.

So the blame goes to East.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[eagles123]

Thanks folk, I was West on the this hand. I thought my double of 3 clubs was more suggesting penalties, showing something in clubs and a hand that didn't have great hearts rather than pure penalties. I was thinking about the vulnerability as well, I might just have raised hearts if we were red and they were white... but I can see I probably had too strong a hand to pass out 3H - the reason I didn't is I thought I had already bid my hand - not quite an opening bid but still pretty good.

Thanks,

Eagles

[helene_t]

There should have been some votes for "no blame". You missed a good-but-not-cold game that hangs on East's sec K in the enemy suit somewhat unexpectedly giving a sure trick.

[Wackojack]

It is tough to assign any blame here. However, if I were partnering a clone of myself the bidding would go:
1♥-(x) - (xx) - 2♣
2♥-(3♣)- 3♥-(p)
?
With just ♣Axxx the penalty double looks too risky and partner does not know that I have doubleton heart support so I bid 3♥ here. When 3♥ comes round to my east clone I think I would be tempted to go for 4♥certainly at teams and maybe at pairs but it would be close. I confess I would not be confident either way.

There again, when I look at both hands I would want to defend 3♣ x for a near certain 200 and a possible 500 if 4♥ makes. So now do I have to apportion blame to my clones

[ggwhiz]

 Wackojack, on 2013-November-07, 10:53, said:

So now do I have to apportion blame to my clones

You need a poll option for posters to blame themselves?

Our opening style is pretty loose, especially on these colors. The 2♥ bid shows a weak 2 that was a touch too good (maybe) and this one is a 3 of that flavor which is plenty high enough if west has softer values than the 2 bullets.

Pulling a redouble to whatever level says that whatever you think you were beating, I don't on general principles.

[the hog]

 eagles123, on 2013-November-07, 03:35, said:

Thanks folk, I was West on the this hand. I thought my double of 3 clubs was more suggesting penalties, showing something in clubs and a hand that didn't have great hearts rather than pure penalties. I was thinking about the vulnerability as well, I might just have raised hearts if we were red and they were white... but I can see I probably had too strong a hand to pass out 3H - the reason I didn't is I thought I had already bid my hand - not quite an opening bid but still pretty good.

Thanks,

Eagles

Where is the hand you held when you made the penalty x. The shown hand is not within cooee of a penalty x of 3C.

[steve2005]

I voted equal blame. for obvious reasons with the heart hand. but responder crazy if thinks making profit with 3♣X. and bidding 4♥ later.

but listening to discussion there is much to these sort of sequences which needs to be discussed. this should be discussed rather than trying to assign blame!