[MrAce]

I request everyone to imagine this deal when LHO hand is exchanged with CHO hand

I bid 4♠ and went down a lot. So did most of the very good players in this topic. If the hands were exchanged it would be totally different story. A story that Gzsez will try to balance with AKJxx spades perhaps ? Then you can still flip his pd hand with his RHO, looking at an other disaster. They would all be % 100 compatible with the auction, decisions and outcomes.

But read my 2nd post, final part. Same cautious people would have never opened 4♥ with the hand our RHO did. We would have never faced this problem when our LHO holds AKJxx ♠ or when our pd holds them. We would be able to figure out in safer levels in a slow auction. would stay out of it with no fit and would bid it when we do have fit.

Cautious people won a lot of imps on this hand, and could be easily other way around if pd and LHO exchanged hands. Usually you don't fall in front of disaster trump stack and/or an obvious penalty double either. But their caution, winning passive action on this hand would probably not be a win, because their alike teammates would never open 4♥ at the other table. They just can not see the tons of hidden imps which are lost due to the passive approach. You just can not expect to win, when your side is constantly having to make decisions like this and other team does not. You can not expect to win or damage opponents by making only picture bid like preempts, or picture bid like actions over their preempts.

As you saw in this topic, even the best players in this forum went for a phone number. Something that would have never happened have they been left in their comfort zone.

Passing 4♥ is not a crime to me even though i am a 4♠ bidder. I can definitely understand that it is a decision which was made under pressure. We all knew we could fall in either side of the disaster line when we made our decision. Just don't come up with funny things like Gzsez did, and try to make a sense out of it vs a 4 level preempt. Things after a 4 level preempt are too complicated to make statements like Gzsez did. If i were him i would be more careful on what i say on a topic which world has not found a solution yet even though it has been an issue for a long time now. But then again i disagree to at least % 80 of what he says in general, not only this topic.

 mikeh, on 2013-October-15, 12:15, said:

I pass, but with trepidation.
......
I thought this was a good problem, btw.

This says it all. If the problem is good, which i agree, then the answer is never as obvious as people show it to be.

[ArtK78]

 MrAce, on 2013-October-17, 14:20, said:

I request everyone to imagine this deal when LHO hand is exchanged with CHO hand

I bid 4♠ and went down a lot. So did most of the very good players in this topic. If the hands were exchanged it would be totally different story. A story that Gzsez will try to balance with AKJxx spades perhaps ? Then you can still flip his pd hand with his RHO, looking at an other disaster. They would all be % 100 compatible with the auction, decisions and outcomes.

But read my 2nd post, final part. Same cautious people would have never opened 4♥ with the hand our RHO did. We would have never faced this problem when our LHO holds AKJxx ♠ or when our pd holds them. We would be able to figure out in safer levels in a slow auction. would stay out of it with no fit and would bid it when we do have fit.

Cautious people won a lot of imps on this hand, and could be easily other way around if pd and LHO exchanged hands. Usually you don't fall in front of disaster trump stack and an obvious penalty double either. But their caution, passive approach, trying to go for an average action is a losing action imo. Even their winning passive action on this hand would probably not be a win, because their alike teammates would never open 4♥ at the other table. They just can not see the tons of hidden imps which are lost due to the passive approach.

As you saw in this topic, even the best players in this forum went for a phone number. Something that would have never happened have they been left in their comfort zone.

Passing 4♥ is not a crime to me even though i am a 4♠ bidder. I can definitely understand that it is a decision which was made under pressure. We all knew we could fall in either side of the disaster line when we made our decision. Just don't come up with funny things like Gzsez did, and try to make a sense out of it vs a 4 level preempt. Things after a 4 level preempt are too complicated to make statements like Gzsez did. If i were him i would be more careful on what i say on a topic which world has not found a solution yet even though it has been an issue for a long time now. But then again i disagree to at least % 80 of what he says in general, not only this topic.

The main reason that I pass is that I am afraid that we will get too high, not that I will go for a number.

[MrAce]

 ArtK78, on 2013-October-17, 14:23, said:

The main reason that I pass is that I am afraid that we will get too high, not that I will go for a number.

This is a very legit concern and i have objection neither to this reasoning nor to your choice.

[Zelandakh]

 MrAce, on 2013-October-17, 14:20, said:

I request everyone to imagine this deal when LHO hand is exchanged with CHO hand

If the hands are exchanged and we pass, would CHO not bid 4♠?

[gszes]

 MrAce, on 2013-October-17, 14:20, said:

I request everyone to imagine this deal when LHO hand is exchanged with CHO hand

I bid 4♠ and went down a lot. So did most of the very good players in this topic. If the hands were exchanged it would be totally different story. A story that Gzsez will try to balance with AKJxx spades perhaps ? Then you can still flip his pd hand with his RHO, looking at an other disaster. They would all be % 100 compatible with the auction, decisions and outcomes.

But read my 2nd post, final part. Same cautious people would have never opened 4♥ with the hand our RHO did. We would have never faced this problem when our LHO holds AKJxx ♠ or when our pd holds them. We would be able to figure out in safer levels in a slow auction. would stay out of it with no fit and would bid it when we do have fit.

Cautious people won a lot of imps on this hand, and could be easily other way around if pd and LHO exchanged hands. Usually you don't fall in front of disaster trump stack and/or an obvious penalty double either. But their caution, winning passive action on this hand would probably not be a win, because their alike teammates would never open 4♥ at the other table. They just can not see the tons of hidden imps which are lost due to the passive approach. You just can not expect to win, when your side is constantly having to make decisions like this and other team does not. You can not expect to win or damage opponents by making only picture bid like preempts, or picture bid like actions over their preempts.

As you saw in this topic, even the best players in this forum went for a phone number. Something that would have never happened have they been left in their comfort zone.

Passing 4♥ is not a crime to me even though i am a 4♠ bidder. I can definitely understand that it is a decision which was made under pressure. We all knew we could fall in either side of the disaster line when we made our decision. Just don't come up with funny things like Gzsez did, and try to make a sense out of it vs a 4 level preempt. Things after a 4 level preempt are too complicated to make statements like Gzsez did. If i were him i would be more careful on what i say on a topic which world has not found a solution yet even though it has been an issue for a long time now. But then again i disagree to at least % 80 of what he says in general, not only this topic.



This says it all. If the problem is good, which i agree, then the answer is never as obvious as people show it to be.

interesting choice of percentages I gave 4s credit as being right approximately 20% of the time---(my version of a super highway) and one can indeed expect to win
if one avoids these kinds of incredible disasters. Note that passing and switching lho and cho hands will allow our partnership to get to an easy 5s bid even if the
opps decide to stop in 4 (I would raise p 4s bid in po seat with this hand). The point is that passers can have it both ways and the bidders just plain need to not only
be lucky on the card layout but have a psychic for a partner since that is the only way they will know when you actually have values and when you are umm err
"stretching" a bit too much.

[sfi]

I think overcalling 4S with the South hand is more dangerous than with the East hand, and I may well choose to defend 4H. Since it's balanced, you need much more from partner to make the contract, and your defence means that 4H is less likely to make. As an example, if you swap the South-East hands -1100 would seem like a triumph.

East's distribution means that your upside is pretty good if you find any sort of a fit.

[mike777]

I would have bid 4s but it could be wrong.

[Codo]

I had passed and reopened with the south hand as West...
Yes having some leeway is nice, but there still is a borderline.

Partner holds 10 HCPs, a fit and we go for -1100. Maybe hte bidders are on the wrong side of the border....

[mikeh]

 MrAce, on 2013-October-17, 14:20, said:

As you saw in this topic, even the best players in this forum went for a phone number.

On behalf of all the passers, who didn't, need I point out, go for 1100 and who would have gone plus (of course I am leading my club..and you can't prove I wasn't going to) I'm hurt

[MrAce]

 mikeh, on 2013-October-15, 12:15, said:

I pass, but with trepidation.

There is, imo, a lot to consider here altho I may be guilty of overthinking.
..................
I thought this was a good problem, btw

This is very normal to me, i can definitely understand and live with everything u say after this start in your post.

 Lord Molyb, on 2013-October-15, 14:24, said:

I consider pass obvious, and I thought I was aggressive

Here is another pass voter, who is way more confident than you in his choice. That i do not understand.

 gszes, on 2013-October-16, 18:00, said:

We need a different partner since we do not trust this current partner to
properly know when/how to balance over 4h p p -----Asking p to give you
some leeway is one thing but introducing a rotten moth eaten fleabag
5 card suit vul at the 4 level is asking for an 8 lane superhighway
......
.....
.....

PASS

Just in case I wasn't clear and lets decide how to proceed after p
acts. BTW almost any partner that sees this collection of ick that
bid 4s will know you do not trust their pass out seat judgement one
iota and they may strongly consider finding someone that does.

pass = 10 4s = 2 (there are worse bids)

Here is another one, who also passes but can not even count the number of spades he is holding, let alone making a correct evaluation of hand. I thought i was clear in my last post that what i disagree was not actually the "pass" but the reasoning(s) behind it.

 Zelandakh, on 2013-October-17, 14:40, said:

If the hands are exchanged and we pass, would CHO not bid 4♠?

Will he ? He may bid 4♠ with AKJxx xx Kx Jxxx and find pd with what we had (Qxxxxx Q Axxxx x) or he can find something similar to what we now 4♠ bidders found ---> x AJx xxxx KQTxx.

My main point is, things are not as obvious as or as black and white as some of us think they are, especially after 4 level preempts. Ironically, same type of players (passers) will not open most of the preempts with the similar reasoning(s). Totally ignoring the IMPs that are lost due to not putting your opponents in similar decisions. Even more ironic, if 4♥ opener was one of those passers, the success rate of 4♠ overcall would have increased by a lot, due to their selective/picky preempts.

I do not see game level preempts as pure preempts. When someone opens at 4 or 5 level, it is indication of a lot of tricks and mostly relying on a long suit but sometimes a 2 suiter 6-5 7-4 7-5 etc..I see it as they have a fit even if his pd has no support for him, opener says he has enough of them in his hand. This is an alarm bell for me. This says we are very likely to have a fit as well. Especially when i am holding a 6-5 hand. This is an alarm bell for me because after 4♥ bid (especially if made by one of those passers) too many tricks for both sides is very likely. Guaranteed ? No unfortunately. And i do not like to treat the preempts at game level as other preempts at 2 or 3 level. Here they are playing game when our side leaves them, and my hand says they are very likely to make. Nobody has the luxury of bidding only on selective hands when they bid game and expect to come out on top in long run. Just like none of us bidders have the guaranteed success for bidding. But bidders, mostly, will also be preempting at the other table and put my opponents on test, just like i was at this table. Passers, mostly, will wait for their selective preempt, and NS on other table will never go -1100 when we have the original deal, or they will never miss 4♠ on another deal.

[Zelandakh]

 MrAce, on 2013-October-18, 17:15, said:

Here is another one, who also passes but can not even count the number of spades he is holding, let alone making a correct evaluation of hand.

What makes you think I miscounted spades? I can provide you with some examples from BBF threads where Justin, et al advocated overcalling 4♠ over 4♥ with considerably worse suits than this one, albeit with more distribution. So I am not worried about the spade suit. On the other hand, I am worried about

 MrAce, on 2013-October-18, 17:15, said:

Will he ? He may bid 4♠ with AKJxx xx Kx Jxxx and find pd with what we had (Qxxxxx Q Axxxx x) or he can find something similar to what we now 4♠ bidders found ---> x AJx xxxx KQTxx.

particularly given the semi-balanced nature of the hand. Nonetheless, I still think it is clear to balance here despite the risk. At least we will not end up playing 6♠ down a bundle.

 MrAce, on 2013-October-18, 17:15, said:

My main point is, things are not as obvious as or as black and white as some of us think they are, especially after 4 level preempts. Ironically, same type of players (passers) will not open most of the preempts with the similar reasoning(s). Totally ignoring the IMPs that are lost due to not putting your opponents in similar decisions. Even more ironic, if 4♥ opener was one of those passers, the success rate of 4♠ overcall would have increased by a lot, due to their selective/picky preempts.

I agree that neither hand is absolutely black and white. Indeed, you obviously missed this but nowhere have I said what I would do with the OP hand. As it happens I think I would pass but, like Mike, with considerable trepidation. With some partners or against certain opponents I could see myself bidding.

Like you, I also am a big believer in wide-ranging/undisciplined preempts and agree absolutely with your assessment that tighter restrictions help the opponents as much as (or more than) partner if properly disclosed. Sadly, my experience is that preempt style is almost universally not disclosed. By contrast, I think discipline in defending preempts is much more important. That is a guideline for me in constructive versus destructive actions generally. The more disciplined second seat's actions, the more freedom you have to give fourth seat and vice versa. Thus, if the OP hand is a normal 4♠ overcall, South's hand should probably be a pass after 2 passes. If you pass the OP hand then bidding 4♠ in fourth seat looks more appealing. I do not think the lines for these things are set in stone and I daresay almost every partnership has differences here, often between the two players within the same partnership.

[the_clown]

I cant imagine bidding anything but 4♠. Sure once in a while we would get doubled but far more often at least 1 fo the games will be making and bidding will gain us a double digit swing.

[gnasher]

 Zelandakh, on 2013-October-20, 08:39, said:

What makes you think I miscounted spades?

He wasn't talking about you.

[MrAce]

 Zelandakh, on 2013-October-20, 08:39, said:

What makes you think I miscounted spades?

 gnasher, on 2013-October-20, 13:19, said:

He wasn't talking about you.

gszes said:

timestamp='1381968053' post='759491']
...........but introducing a rotten moth eaten fleabag
5 card suit vul at the 4 level is asking for ........

I thought the person i quoted, and what he wrote was clear. I also never said that with the hands exchanged N should or should not balance, i simply showed that whichever action N takes, with the hands W and S holds changed it can still be a disaster either way. But i take this 6-5 hand over a 5242 good 5 card suit on any day to bid over 4♥.

[WellSpyder]

 MrAce, on 2013-October-17, 14:20, said:

But read my 2nd post, final part. Same cautious people would have never opened 4♥ with the hand our RHO did. We would have never faced this problem when our LHO holds AKJxx ♠ or when our pd holds them. We would be able to figure out in safer levels in a slow auction. would stay out of it with no fit and would bid it when we do have fit.

Just out of curiosity, would any of the bidders or passers make a different choice over an opening 3♥?

(The auction at the other table was something like:

---

Same contract, better defence for NS +1400!)

[MrAce]

 WellSpyder, on 2013-October-21, 03:06, said:

Just out of curiosity, would any of the bidders or passers make a different choice over an opening 3♥?

(The auction at the other table was something like:

---

Same contract, better defence for NS +1400!)

I would pass over 3♥. Actions over preempts and actions over their game bid preempts differ for me. Over 3♥ i believe in constructive bidding, over their 4♥ which happens to be candidate for game bonus, my priority is to find saves or games, pars, pushing them etc etc rather than finding slams.

[Fluffy]

I would insta pass over 3♥ also

[Lurpoa]

 MrAce, on 2013-October-15, 13:59, said:

I would bid 4 ♠

I would pass.
But I am Lurpoa....

[Lurpoa]

I REQUEST that all 4♠ reread Lawrence.

 MrAce, on 2013-October-17, 14:20, said:

I request everyone to imagine this deal when LHO hand is exchanged with CHO hand

I bid 4♠ and went down a lot. So did most of the very good players in this topic. If the hands were exchanged it would be totally different story. A story that Gzsez will try to balance with AKJxx spades perhaps ? Then you can still flip his pd hand with his RHO, looking at an other disaster. They would all be % 100 compatible with the auction, decisions and outcomes.

But read my 2nd post, final part. Same cautious people would have never opened 4♥ with the hand our RHO did. We would have never faced this problem when our LHO holds AKJxx ♠ or when our pd holds them. We would be able to figure out in safer levels in a slow auction. would stay out of it with no fit and would bid it when we do have fit.

Cautious people won a lot of imps on this hand, and could be easily other way around if pd and LHO exchanged hands. Usually you don't fall in front of disaster trump stack and/or an obvious penalty double either. But their caution, winning passive action on this hand would probably not be a win, because their alike teammates would never open 4♥ at the other table. They just can not see the tons of hidden imps which are lost due to the passive approach. You just can not expect to win, when your side is constantly having to make decisions like this and other team does not. You can not expect to win or damage opponents by making only picture bid like preempts, or picture bid like actions over their preempts.

As you saw in this topic, even the best players in this forum went for a phone number. Something that would have never happened have they been left in their comfort zone.

Passing 4♥ is not a crime to me even though i am a 4♠ bidder. I can definitely understand that it is a decision which was made under pressure. We all knew we could fall in either side of the disaster line when we made our decision. Just don't come up with funny things like Gzsez did, and try to make a sense out of it vs a 4 level preempt. Things after a 4 level preempt are too complicated to make statements like Gzsez did. If i were him i would be more careful on what i say on a topic which world has not found a solution yet even though it has been an issue for a long time now. But then again i disagree to at least % 80 of what he says in general, not only this topic.



This says it all. If the problem is good, which i agree, then the answer is never as obvious as people show it to be.

[MrAce]

 Lurpoa, on 2013-October-22, 14:57, said:

I would pass.
But I am Lurpoa....

This only makes passers to reconsider their decision