[mila85]

pclayton, on Jan 26 2005, 11:01 AM, said:

Do you count every single hand?

No. Why?

[junyi_zhu]

pclayton, on Jan 26 2005, 04:01 PM, said:

I want to ask a question - and I'd appreciate an honest answer from everyone.

Do you count every single hand?

And when I mean 'count', I don't mean the squeeze example given at the beginning of this thread, where the success of your contract is dependent on the knowledge of what cards the opponents are holding in the endgame. What I mean are the semi-mundane hands.

I don't do deep analysis on every hand. I only count shape and I count HCP when I need to count it. However, I basically memorized most cards played in one hand, high cards, defensive signals; and I analize the information when I think I need to. So basically, I don't use the term, count much. Usually, knowing the four hands isn't enough, the more important thing is to find the winning play.

[luis]

pclayton, on Jan 26 2005, 04:01 PM, said:

I want to ask a question - and I'd appreciate an honest answer from everyone.

Do you count every single hand?

And when I mean 'count', I don't mean the squeeze example given at the beginning of this thread, where the success of your contract is dependent on the knowledge of what cards the opponents are holding in the endgame. What I mean are the semi-mundane hands.

Yes, but I'm not proud of this habit :-). Sometimes it would be a good thing to be able to relax and keep energy for the hands ahead... But no, I can't resist trying to break a squeeze for 13 tricks in a 3NT game where you can see 12 tricks :-)

[Free]

Do I count ALL hands? NO. However, I think it would be best to do so, just to make it a habbit. I did it in the past, and now I'm around 98% of the time right, even if I didn't count the hand completely. I usually notice soon enough if I really have to count the hand or not. However, if I've mistaken and I actually did have to count it when I didn't, I usually still manage to make the right decision. It probably has something to do with my semi-photographic short-term-memory, but somehow I'm usually able to remember all tricks (not the difference between a 4 or 5, but the difference between an 8 and a 9 I will remember) and count the hands afterwards when it seems to be important after all... I think my short term memory is well trained

[luke warm]

Free, on Jan 26 2005, 05:23 PM, said:

I think my short term memory is well trained

well i think ... what were we talking about?

[Fluffy]

pclayton, on Jan 26 2005, 04:01 PM, said:

I want to ask a question - and I'd appreciate an honest answer from everyone.

Do you count every single hand?

I switch off my mind when I can count 9 opponet's winners in 3NT, or against 28+ HCP games that seem petty cold, and also when defending and have nothing at all, these has led to a couple of hard positions when I uunexpectedly had to decide a line, but only a couple, and I guessed in the end .

Declaring and playing online I often just wanna play and play so don't count at all when it seems easy (these often turns into big mistake, but at least saves time ).

[FrancesHinden]

Quote

Do you count every single hand?

Not always when I'm dummy, but other than that, yes, of course I do. It's automatic. On any hand where I was declarer or a defender I would always expect to be able to tell you every card played in order to every trick.

OK, I've thought of an exception. Sometimes as declarer you have an absolutely textbook play problem - the sort of hand that appears in magazines as "how do you ensure the success of this contract". When there is a mechanical line to take, so it doesn't matter what the defence play, (i.e. so you could claim except playing it out will be quicker) I take less notice of their pips.

p.s. I only play f2f, but I can't see why online should be different.

[TimG]

fred, on Jan 20 2005, 01:11 PM, said:

Jlall, on Jan 19 2005, 05:19 PM, said:

This is funny, because I can't figure out how to answer it. I'm not really sure how I count. I just do lol. Really weird, I've never thought about it.

My experience is similar. I don't really have to think about counting the hand - it is almost like a program running in the background of my mind handles this for me.

Another strange thing is that I did not always have this ability and it is not something that I gradually developed.

I don't think this is strange at all. Some are probably aware of a simple experiment done with chess players in which pieces were randomly placed on a board and exposed to the player for a few seconds. The chess players were not very good at reproducing the position. The same chess players were also shown placements of pieces from actual games and they were able to reproduce these very accurately. That's because the players were not merely noting that the a white bishop was on a specific space, but rather how the pieces were related in the overall position.

The same thing happens in bridge. When a bridge player is just starting out, they have trouble remembering a hand after the last card has been played. As a player gains experience, he'll often be able to recall hands from days, months or years ago. It's not because he's remembering a random arrangement of cards, but rather because he's remembering the overall position and how it relates to the bridge result.

You've already learned the only significant trick I know of: count just the cards your opponents play, not the ones you play. If you started with eight between declarer and dummy, you know the opponents have five between them, so count just those five rather than all thirteen. (I believe I first learned this trick from a Dorothy Hayden Truscott book, probably Bid Better, Play Better. I remember where I was when I read it -- it was that much of a revelation.) When I was teaching absolute beginners and I told them about this trick, someone would always ask: "but, how do I remember how many I started with?" Remember when you couldn't recall dummy's shape after a few tricks had been played? Seems inconceivable, now, doesn't it? (Well, most of the time, anyway.) To someone like Fred or Frances it seems inconceivable not to remember the spots that have been played to all the tricks. This mostly comes from experience (and the resulting deeper understanding of each hand) rather than in inate ability to remember spot cards.

On to the original exercise. No, I don't think there is any special trick to remembering the cards that have been played. This is almost a pure memory test. But, it's not one that is that hard: you're counting five spades, six hearts, eight diamonds and seven clubs. And, the spades will be known soon enough, so you won't have to remember how many of those you've seen, but rather how they broke, and it's doubtful that it's important to have any idea which spade spot card either defender had. In fact, you'd probably do just fine if all you payed attention to were the Queen, Jack and Ten of Clubs; the King and Queen of Hearts; and the King of Diamonds. By thinking through a plan, you've basically reduced the amount of memory needed to remembering which of six cards have been played. So, this hand is probably easier from a memory standpoint than most.

Tim

[luis]

FrancesHinden, on Jan 27 2005, 01:15 PM, said:

Quote

Do you count every single hand?

Not always when I'm dummy, but other than that, yes, of course I do. It's automatic. On any hand where I was declarer or a defender I would always expect to be able to tell you every card played in order to every trick.

OK, I've thought of an exception. Sometimes as declarer you have an absolutely textbook play problem - the sort of hand that appears in magazines as "how do you ensure the success of this contract". When there is a mechanical line to take, so it doesn't matter what the defence play, (i.e. so you could claim except playing it out will be quicker) I take less notice of their pips.

p.s. I only play f2f, but I can't see why online should be different.

I completely shutdown when I'm dummy, I like to ask questions such as "did you have some spades pd?" :-)
It's good taking a break and being dummy is the perfect moment and it's impossible to get mad with your pd if you don't see what he is doing :-)
Without screens if you pretend to count the hand as dummy and follow the play you have to be careful of not making faces or showing signs of horror before picking the card that pd called from dummy :-)

[pclayton]

luis, on Jan 27 2005, 07:18 AM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Jan 27 2005, 01:15 PM, said:

Quote

Do you count every single hand?

Not always when I'm dummy, but other than that, yes, of course I do. It's automatic. On any hand where I was declarer or a defender I would always expect to be able to tell you every card played in order to every trick.

OK, I've thought of an exception. Sometimes as declarer you have an absolutely textbook play problem - the sort of hand that appears in magazines as "how do you ensure the success of this contract". When there is a mechanical line to take, so it doesn't matter what the defence play, (i.e. so you could claim except playing it out will be quicker) I take less notice of their pips.

p.s. I only play f2f, but I can't see why online should be different.

I completely shutdown when I'm dummy, I like to ask questions such as "did you have some spades pd?" :-)
It's good taking a break and being dummy is the perfect moment and it's impossible to get mad with your pd if you don't see what he is doing :-)
Without screens if you pretend to count the hand as dummy and follow the play you have to be careful of not making faces or showing signs of horror before picking the card that pd called from dummy :-)

In the LM Pairs a few years ago I played against Forrester and Brogeland. When Boye played the hand, Tony was literally 'sleeping' as dummy; would have his eyes closed except when his pard called for a card.

[han]

I wish I had this skill of sleeping when I'm dummy. I pay far too much attention, especially when the bidding was tough and I want to know whether my choices turned out well.

I know that this is a bad habit, and having read this thread I will make another try to change this.

[Trumpace]

Hannie, on Jan 27 2005, 01:12 PM, said:

I wish I had this skill of sleeping when I'm dummy. I pay far too much attention, especially when the bidding was tough and I want to know whether my choices turned out well.

I know that this is a bad habit, and having read this thread I will make another try to change this.

Well, I have a hard time counting out many hands. I guess it is a *good* practise (for people like me) to be active while being the dummy, till we are comfortable enough with our skills in counting.

[junyi_zhu]

Trumpace, on Jan 27 2005, 06:58 PM, said:

Hannie, on Jan 27 2005, 01:12 PM, said:

I wish I had this skill of sleeping when I'm dummy. I pay far too much attention, especially when the bidding was tough and I want to know whether my choices turned out well.

I know that this is a bad habit, and having read this thread I will make another try to change this.

Well, I have a hard time counting out many hands. I guess it is a *good* practise (for people like me) to be active while being the dummy, till we are comfortable enough with our skills in counting.

If it's the event you don't care much about, you can actually practice counting when you are dummy. It's often a lot of fun to count. Once I watched my partner execute a devil's coup in 2H without realizing it, actually I was probably the only one realized that it was a devil's coup at the table. Another good exercize is to kib a game without watching anybody's cards except dummy's and try to figure out what's going on.

[Flame]

I count only what i need for my plan, sometimes i found out that i had to count something which i didnt and that hurt, but my mind is set on minimizing the work on every task i do.
When im dummy i dont look at the play unless im teaching someone.

[Flame]

Winstonm, on Jan 25 2005, 06:33 PM, said:

Don't worry about the mechanics of squeezes at this point in your career - you can and should learn that later on. For now, the best thing to do is to make your best plan - and do it before a single card is played from dummy. More hands are blown at trick one than at any other time.

For now, think about how you can combine your chances. There are two simple chances: take the diamond finesse or play the ace of hearts and ruff a heart, which will develope the jack into a trick ff one opponent holds the KQ doubleton. Better yet is to combine those chances...try the hearts first....if that doesn't work you can always try the diamond finesse later. This is a big reason why experts make more contracts: they utilize all there chances and plan the timing very carefully.

And it is probalby best to delay the diamond finesse until you have run off all but one trump....a squeeze that you can see may just fall into I don't know the mechanics.

WinstonM

I wish you checked before you decide about the point im in my career because even though i dont think you ment to, it was insulting.

[Fluffy]

Yeah as dummy is way better to switch off, if partner makes a huge mistake you will not notice wich is very good for the partnership, going out for a coffe of cola when partner is squeezing its brain on a difficul contract is recomended.

[Winstonm]

For me it is like living is to breathing - the two cannot be separated. Bridge is counting and counting is bridge. I count every hand, every time.

WinstonM

[Winstonm]

Dear Flame:

The last thing I meant to do was to insult. Please accept my most sincere apology and regrets. Unfortunately, it is not the first time I have placed foot into mouth and I should be more sensitive to others feelings.

WinstonM

[Flame]

Winstonm, on Jan 28 2005, 06:56 AM, said:

Dear Flame:

The last thing I meant to do was to insult. Please accept my most sincere apology and regrets. Unfortunately, it is not the first time I have placed foot into mouth and I should be more sensitive to others feelings.

WinstonM

apology accepted thanks.